Lord of the Iron Fortress

[Marion Poliquin]

In Lord of the Iron Fortress (15th level adventure), there is a new monster (whose name escapes me at the moment) that has an ability called Sundering Bite. The creature gets +4 to its opposed roll to attack the weapon, shield or item. If it hits, it deals double damage (4d6 + 14*) to the object.

Okay, here's the thing.

The rules clearly state that if an item has plusses, it has to be it with something that has as many plusses in order to be able to be damaged.

The monster does not have plusses, so according to the rules it should not even be able to dent a +1 or better item.

But wait, it does, however, have Damage Reduction 20*/+4. Following me ?

The rules for Damage Reduction state that monsters can ignore the Damage Reduction of other monsters if that DR (+1, +2, +3, etc.) is less than or equal to their own.

My question is : would you say that this would the new monster (DR +4) to damage items +4 or less ?

If yes : wouldn't you say it' a bit unfair for a monster meant as a frequent encounter in an adventure to be able to snap the character's precious items like toothpicks ? (unless they are +5, which is still rare at level 15). Plus, once the monsters have destroyedd all the character's precious equipment, it becomes very hard to defeat the monsters.

If no : well, it means that the ability just isn't very useful against high-level characters, so why even give it to the monster since it was made specifically to be thrown at 15th level characters ?

So, which is it ? Is the ability too good to be true or too bad to be true.

*edited to correct a few facts.

 

[Adjudicator]

The monster is able to sunder +4 and lower weapons. That is +4 enhancement not +4 equivelant, so he would still chew through that +2 vorpal longsword without a prob.

Looks like the cleric or wizard will come in mighty handy when dealing with this bruiser.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

The monster is able to sunder +4 and lower weapons. That is +4 enhancement not +4 equivelant, so he would still chew through that +2 vorpal longsword without a prob.

You seem mighty sure of yourself there, pardner.

You wouldn't happen to have document titles and page numbers to go with your affiremation, wouldn't you ? That would really help me out.

Looks like the cleric or wizard will come in mighty handy when dealing with this bruiser.

The problem is that it is not "this" bruiser. The Steel Predators (I checked the name) come in packs of 2-4 throughout the adventure.

 

[Grendel]

You wouldn't happen to have document titles and page numbers to go with your affiremation, wouldn't you ? That would really help me out.

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

...and your clerics and wizards will still be you best fried because of GREATER MAGIC WEAPON and MAGICAL VESTMENTS, when cast by a 15th level caster it last for 15 hours and provides a +5 enhancement bonus.
Option 2. get an anti magic shield up with some adamantite weapons. the Shield will negate you opponents DR, without affect the adamantite bonus on the weapon, once again making them impervious.

 

[Hypersmurf]

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

That's hardly a constructive response.

She's cited rules from two different places in the Core books - she has gone to the trouble of looking it up. She's asking for help with something that isn't made clear in the Core rules.

Adjudicator statement was made as a fact, not an opinion, so she's asked for a reference.

I don't have a reference to wholly support my interpretation, so I'll give it as an opinion - I believe the Steel Predator can't sunder magical weapons.

Damage reduction can be overcome by magical weapons, or by creatures with their own damage reduction. Two separate circumstances, either of which can apply. (MM p9)

Magical weapons can only be broken by a weapon with equal or greater enhancement bonus. One circumstance. Creatures with DR are not mentioned. (PHB p136)

DR vs DR is a completely separate issue to enhancement vs DR, just as enhancement vs enhancement is a completely separate issue to DR vs enhancement. The rules allow two ways to beat DR, but only one to beat enhancement.

In my opinion.

-Hyp.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

you mean you didn't look it up youself. I guess you will just have to take everyones word for it then.

...and your clerics and wizards will still be you best fried because of GREATER MAGIC WEAPON and MAGICAL VESTMENTS, when cast by a 15th level caster it last for 15 hours and provides a +5 enhancement bonus.
Option 2. get an anti magic shield up with some adamantite weapons. the Shield will negate you opponents DR, without affect the adamantite bonus on the weapon, once again making them impervious.

Thanks for the advice.

By the way. I did look it up, at length before asking the good people of the board. Since I didn't see anything to support Adjudicator's statement I figured it might have come from either a passage I completely missed or a sage advice / errata I haven't read. So I politely asked for a reference. It's always nice to have those things in writing.

(edited for clarity)

 

[Marion Poliquin]

That's hardly a constructive response.

She's cited rules from two different places in the Core books - she has gone to the trouble of looking it up. She's asking for help with something that isn't made clear in the Core rules.

Adjudicator statement was made as a fact, not an opinion, so she's asked for a reference.

Exactly. By the way, I'm a he. Don't worry about it, happens all the time online.

Never in real life though - must be the huge red beard.

I don't have a reference to wholly support my interpretation, so I'll give it as an opinion - I believe the Steel Predator can't sunder magical weapons.

Damage reduction can be overcome by magical weapons, or by creatures with their own damage reduction. Two separate circumstances, either of which can apply. (MM p9)

Magical weapons can only be broken by a weapon with equal or greater enhancement bonus. One circumstance. Creatures with DR are not mentioned. (PHB p136)

DR vs DR is a completely separate issue to enhancement vs DR, just as enhancement vs enhancement is a completely separate issue to DR vs enhancement. The rules allow two ways to beat DR, but only one to beat enhancement.

In my opinion.

-Hyp.

You're pretty much perfectly right on every point. According to the rules as written, the Steel Predator can't sunder items with enhancement bonuses.

I decided to ask the question because I couldn't for the life of me understand why the designer would give that ability to the Steel Predator if it's never going to be used (high-level characters tend not to have all that much non-enchanted equipment).

Perhaps the designer didn't think about the sundering rules before making the monster.

Anyway, I wanted to fly the question by the other board worthies to get as much input as I can.

Right now, I'm leaning towards using the rules as written. Although the advice Grendel gave those make it feasible to do it the other way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Exactly. By the way, I'm a he. Don't worry about it, happens all the time online.

I hesitated, then decided to go with the odds Ah well.

Although the advice Grendel gave those make it feasible to do it the other way.

Apart from the Adamantine/Antimagic Field trick - the Steel Predator can sunder Adamantine weapons. It's not "weapons with enhancement bonuses" that require enhancement bonuses to overcome, it's "magic weapons with enhancement bonuses".

Adamantine is non-magical, so its enhancement bonuses just add to its hardness and hit points.

In my opinion

-Hyp.

 

[Marion Poliquin]

Apart from the Adamantine/Antimagic Field trick - the Steel Predator can sunder Adamantine weapons. It's not "weapons with enhancement bonuses" that require enhancement bonuses to overcome, it's "magic weapons with enhancement bonuses".

Adamantine is non-magical, so its enhancement bonuses just add to its hardness and hit points.

In my opinion

-Hyp.

And I agree.

Greater magic weapon looks like the best bet. If I decide to allow the Steel Predators to sunder enhanced magic weapons, that is.

 

[Orco42]

By the books it looks like it can not eat the magic weapons.

But I would rule that they can (up to +4) because of their DR.

Plus I am an evil DM.