Lord or Tyrant?

[Fenes]

I think our main difference is that I do believe there is no justification at all to call the cleric a b****. That is simply not done in my campaign, even if she acted like one. It's a mortal insult.

I'd expect every noble in my camapign to be aghast at an underling breaking courtesy in such a manner - like today, a politician would be aghast at his secretary calling a colored man the n-word, and would not back him up.

 

[Numion]

The fact that the guard then called her a name back was not really diplomatic of him or very smart when this cleric could cause him all kinds of pain. But in no way did the female cleric behave in a manner befitting her calling or her rank. Both of these characters were in the wrong but the cleric was in no way the wounded party she was behaving for all intents and purposes like a b****.

Reminds me of a specific incident that happened in year 2000. I was a officer trainee leading a platoon in a field exercise. We were having a break on a march, and I was goofing around with the three NCOs in my command. Out of the forest appear, in full batle gear, a major and another officer. They're marching past us, when the major turns to me and says:

"Officer trainee you, come here"
I run up to the guy.
"Why were you and the NCOs laughing at us?"
"Sir Major, we were not laughing at you. Just joking around."
"You also didn't salute me when you ran up to me. Who's your CO?"
"We have been trained to not salute rank during field exercises (anti-sniper precaution). My CO is captain N.N."
"Have you forgotten how to address superior rank?!!" (He's getting agitated)
"We have been trained to address 'Sir, Rank' only at the beginning of conversation."
"This won't end here. Dismissed."

Now it actually ended there, the major probably knew he was in the wrong, and had forgotten some basic rules of conduct. I was right, and also exhausted after 5 days in the field with little sleep, but it would've been moronic to counter like this:

"Officer trainee you, come here"
I run up to the guy.
"Why were you and the NCOs laughing at us?"
"You're acting like a lil' bitch right now, we've been on exercise for 5 days, I'm exhausted, so take your man-whore with you and get the F outta here, I'm in charge of this platoon!"

That would've been disciplinary action right there.. and in no way would've that gotten me the respect of my troops. Just saying that someone acting like a bitch (like the major here), it doesn't warrant breaking rules of conduct. Those are separate offenses, and two wrongs don't make right.

One military rule the PCs in this scenario would've been wise to follow is that you should never reprimand a commander of any rank in front of his subjects. (Hmm .. that's a good reason for accepting the duel, not to lose face in front of troops.)

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Sure, they were under stress. But the PC didn't just wail on the guard:

Actually the player said that he grabbed the npc and shoved him up against the wall. He became physically violent, escalating the situation from a mere verbal dispute.

Show respect, or face him in a duel. The guard still refuses to show respect, and chooses the duel. I'd say that's a strange decision for even a stressed out sword jockey. Why couldn't he just say, "Yeah, I'm sorry, I'll remember my place from now on." instead of "Bring on the duel, I'm not going to show respect."

When "show respect" translates as "say your men were wrong to perform your duties, and accept your place as being subordinant to me in your own command"?

Yeah, groveling before a tyrant is always an option. Accepting "your place" as a worm before the guy who can kill you is always an option. Abandoning your duty placed on you by a lawful lord is always an option.

The main point of dispute in the thread, afaict, is what the Captain's place actually was. Certain people seem bound and determined to supercede the DM in his own gameworld and say that the captain was a mere commoner who owed absolute deference and subservience to any lord or priestess. The person actually running the game has made it perfectly clear that this is not the case - this was a captain, placed in command of the keep and not subject to the PCs' dicipline. His place was to defend his men against some idiot yelling at them for performing his duty. His place was to maintain his rights of command and not make himself subservient to a relative stranger in the keep. His place was also to act with some tact, but since the PCs failed that test as well, first last and most spectacularly, it's not a failing of the caste system that again does not exist in this DM's game to the extent folks are trying to impose it.

It is possible that the Captain, if circumstances and diplomacy sufficed, could have said something along the lines of "I appologize for the harshness of my words to the priestess, but you are guests in a keep I command in my lord's absence, not the commanders here and I will thank you to remind your subordinants of that. I will thank you also to remember that when you lay hands on me, you lay hands on my lord, and while you may have the physical strength to murder me should I not defer to you, so do the vampires I'm pledged to hold this keep against. I will betray my lord's trust no more to you than I would to them." Then again, the PC could have started out by rebuking both the priestess for her churlishness and the captain for his harsh language instead of acting like he and his people are the rulers of a man who is effectively their host.

But that's enough go round for me. Why not start a new thread on "Social order and Caste system in MY game" instead of keeping on trying to establish the one true way this DM should order his society?

 

[Numion]

Actually the player said that he grabbed the npc and shoved him up against the wall. He became physically violent, escalating the situation from a mere verbal dispute.

When "show respect" translates as "say your men were wrong to perform your duties, and accept your place as being subordinant to me in your own command"?

No, "show respect" meant here not calling a priestess a bitch and backtalking a lord. Only after that was the guard pushed against the wall:

She then scolds the archers for firing on (the now fully physically manifested) Priest, and one militiaman in turn returns the anger with interest, telling her this is not her place to be giving orders.

My PC emerges and sees Grenwyn getting aggression from the militiaman and tells him not to dare yell at a priestess. He backchats my PC, so he grabs the man by the tunic and shoves him up against the battlements and tells him to shut up.

Surely grabbing a guards tunic and shoving him against a wall isn't as serious as calling a priestess a bitch or backtalking a lord? Even after that the guard was given an option of showing respect or facing a duel, even though a whipping would've been in place. He chose a duel.

 

[Elf Witch]

I think our main difference is that I do believe there is no justification at all to call the cleric a b****. That is simply not done in my campaign, even if she acted like one. It's a mortal insult.

I'd expect every noble in my camapign to be aghast at an underling breaking courtesy in such a manner - like today, a politician would be aghast at his secretary calling a colored man the n-word, and would not back him up.

That is your game and if it was your game you would have handled the sitution between the NPC and cleric differently. In this DMs game the world does not work where just because you are a cleric or of noble birth you get special treatment.

And not every world has clerics shown respect I have played in an Eberron campaign and the DM had clerics really looked down on and I knew that just because I was playing a cleric I would not get deferential treatment because of it.

You have the judge the situation based on the mores and culture of this world not yours.

BTW the cleric of this game is not a noble and according to the DM the npc just viewed her as a rogue magic user.

Not to get into real world politics but it a little different calling a black man the N word and calling someone a b****. I would never call someone a N***** but I have been known to call someone a B*****.

 

[Elf Witch]

Reminds me of a specific incident that happened in year 2000. I was a officer trainee leading a platoon in a field exercise. We were having a break on a march, and I was goofing around with the three NCOs in my command. Out of the forest appear, in full batle gear, a major and another officer. They're marching past us, when the major turns to me and says:

"Officer trainee you, come here"
I run up to the guy.
"Why were you and the NCOs laughing at us?"
"Sir Major, we were not laughing at you. Just joking around."
"You also didn't salute me when you ran up to me. Who's your CO?"
"We have been trained to not salute rank during field exercises (anti-sniper precaution). My CO is captain N.N."
"Have you forgotten how to address superior rank?!!" (He's getting agitated)
"We have been trained to address 'Sir, Rank' only at the beginning of conversation."
"This won't end here. Dismissed."

Now it actually ended there, the major probably knew he was in the wrong, and had forgotten some basic rules of conduct. I was right, and also exhausted after 5 days in the field with little sleep, but it would've been moronic to counter like this:

"Officer trainee you, come here"
I run up to the guy.
"Why were you and the NCOs laughing at us?"
"You're acting like a lil' bitch right now, we've been on exercise for 5 days, I'm exhausted, so take your man-whore with you and get the F outta here, I'm in charge of this platoon!"

That would've been disciplinary action right there.. and in no way would've that gotten me the respect of my troops. Just saying that someone acting like a bitch (like the major here), it doesn't warrant breaking rules of conduct. Those are separate offenses, and two wrongs don't make right.

One military rule the PCs in this scenario would've been wise to follow is that you should never reprimand a commander of any rank in front of his subjects. (Hmm .. that's a good reason for accepting the duel, not to lose face in front of troops.)

The situation is not quite the same you were following military protocol and breaking it by mouthing off to the officer would have got you in trouble which it should have.

The cleric was not a member of the guards she had no authority it would mo more like a civilian and military person getting into it. Now calling a civilian a b***** might get you a talking to even disciplined but it is not in the same league as calling an officer a name.

A good example of how I see this is you have police officer arresting the wrong person and a witness comes up and says no that is not the guy so the police officer lets the guy go and the witness then starts bad mouthing the cop and calling him stupid. Would you be surprised to see the cop tell the person to shut up and get out of his face and they didn't they ended up with hand cuffs on in the back of the police car.

And I agree with you two wrongs don't make a right and the captain would have been better off keeping his cool and having the female cleric removed from the wall. Something along the lines of "Madam that is enough why don't you retire and tend to your commrade" and if she still berates him have one of his guards take her by the arm and remove her.

I have found this entire thread interesting because to me this is not a black and white situation it has alot of gray you have a lot of characters losing their cool and going off halfcocked and lots of consquences coming down all over the place. For me some of the best role playing has come from situations where things didn't go as smoothly as hoped for and we didn't behave as good as we should have.

 

[GAAAHHH]

And maybe the DM would not want you as a player in his game.

I would like to point out that OP who is a player in this game did not say anything about the DM being a bad DM or not wanting to play in his game anymore.

I get the impression that he isn't the type of DM I would enjoy playing with because of his posts in this thread.

 

[Fenes]

Not to get into real world politics but it a little different calling a black man the N word and calling someone a b****. I would never call someone a N***** but I have been known to call someone a B*****.

And in medieval times, calling someone a dog was an insult worthy of a duel, or a feud if done in some classes.

 

[Fenes]

The situation is not quite the same you were following military protocol and breaking it by mouthing off to the officer would have got you in trouble which it should have.

The cleric was not a member of the guards she had no authority it would mo more like a civilian and military person getting into it. Now calling a civilian a b***** might get you a talking to even disciplined but it is not in the same league as calling an officer a name.

My point is that in my campaign, and as far as I know, in medieval times, it was in the same league, since society was structured that way. It is a default assumption I follow whenever a feudal system is mentioned.

 

[Elf Witch]

And in medieval times, calling someone a dog was an insult worthy of a duel, or a feud if done in some classes.

Yes it was an getting in the way of the guard following their lords orders would also get you in trouble even you were a priest or a monk.

Tthe setting this DM is creating is not following medieval mores. If he was being realistic and following medieval mores there would be no female clerics only nuns with little or no power and a non noble woman confonting a guard like that would be lucky if she didn't get slapped and knocked down.