Lord or Tyrant?

[Elf Witch]

They were treated like stooges because they acted like stooges. They denied their lord's allies rightful access to their lord's castle for no reason whatsoever, leaving the allies stranded outside during a vampiric siege. They fired on one of their lord's allies, despite it being daylight, when any moron knows vampires cannot be active outside. Then they had to gall to insult the lord ally of their lord.

They deserved what was coming to them. If their lord had been there, they'd have been in MUCH more trouble than a nonlethal duel of honor.

This was rather rude. First of all in my campaign a vampire has acess to a magic item that allows him to walk in daylight maybe this DM has one too. But even if he does not it you were not at his table or in his head you don't know how much knowledge his NPCs have about the undead.

As for denying aceess to his lord allies again you were not at the table you don't don't why the PCs were denied at first and you don't know if the pCs and the lords were allies yet.

As a fellow DM I find it rather unhelpful to call a another DM a moron and that it exactly what you did when called the NPCs morons because after the DM plays them.

 

[Elf Witch]

I'm glad I'm not a player in this game.

And maybe the DM would not want you as a player in his game.

I would like to point out that OP who is a player in this game did not say anything about the DM being a bad DM or not wanting to play in his game anymore.

 

[Numion]

As a fellow DM I find it rather unhelpful to call a another DM a moron and that it exactly what you did when called the NPCs morons because after the DM plays them.

This is really the problem with some DMs. An insult to an NPC is an insult to the DM; disrespect an NPC and you're disrespecting the DM.

That's why there's a double standard on what a PC Lord is forced to tolerate from NPCs, and what PCs without Noble rank have to tolerate from NPC Lords.

BTW there's a really funny KotDT strip on this subject. The PCs have an audience before the king, and are epxected to kneel: "El Ravager bows before no man!" "I'm not bowing either. I'll just give him a nod and a knowing wink; as a former adventurer he'll surely understand"

 

[Elf Witch]

Oh, yes, I fully understand how the militia acts, and how they ended up at this point - I simply say that as understandable their actions are from my modern point of view, they'd still suffer serious consequences in my campaign since I see not many justifactions, if any, for such an insult, that the charaters involved, PCs and NPCs alike, in my campaign, would accept or even consider valid.



I said when she scolds them for no reason - I meant that in the same circumstances, PCs can insult foreign princes and kings as they can be insulted by commoners.

To be honest I doubt I would enjoy your game very much because my PC would spend its time in conflict with the nobles if they treated my character like garbage just because they could. Maybe I am to modern to enjoy a campain with that rigid a class structure. But to be fair you most likey would not enjoy me as a player because of this too.

When I play a noble pC I don't tend to play them with the attidue that they can go around mistreating or bulling people just because of their birth. I play them with the attidue that because of their privilege they have a responsibility to those benaeth them.

As a DM I play my nobles two ways good and honorable or as tryants and I fully expect my PCs in the game to may be one take out the tryants.

In your game are tryants protected from being destroyed because they are of noble birth? Because you do realize these PC could be considered tryants you did read how they choose to destroy a town rather then save it. I pretty sure the people of that town rightfully view them as tryants.


If a noble took my PC to task for no reason and I lost my temper over it and then I faced major consquences then I would have my PC work in the background to find away to destroy the noble. Adventurers are not just common folk unable to defend themselves. You may have been born in a hovel but you now command the forces of arcane might why would you allow yourself to be treated like dirt just because of an accident of birth.

 

[Elf Witch]

This is really the problem with some DMs. An insult to an NPC is an insult to the DM; disrespect an NPC and you're disrespecting the DM.

That's why there's a double standard on what a PC Lord is forced to tolerate from NPCs, and what PCs without Noble rank have to tolerate from NPC Lords.

BTW there's a really funny KotDT strip on this subject. The PCs have an audience before the king, and are epxected to kneel: "El Ravager bows before no man!" "I'm not bowing either. I'll just give him a nod and a knowing wink; as a former adventurer he'll surely understand"

I don't agree with this at all ,the other poster was insulting the DM when he does not know how things work in that DM game. At least that is how I took it form the tone of his post. I am not the only poster who thought it was a little over the top in harshness towards the DM.

I have some real morons and tryants in my campaign and I have no problem with my players calling them that.

The DM of this campaign has already said that in his game world he does not follow the noble/commoner style of a medevial setting. As a DM he can do that and he is not playing the game wrong. It sounded to me that he and his players need to get more on the same page as they were having a misunderstanding of his world's culture and how it works in his game.

I think there must be some really bad DMs out there if this is a major issue that PCs feel picked on and feel that NPCs have carte blanche to treat the PCs any way they want and the PCs are not allowed to do the same.

I guess I am pretty lucky that most of the DMs I have played with have never done this and I don't do it as a DM.

 

[Elf Witch]

Sure, they were under stress. But the PC didn't just wail on the guard:



Show respect, or face him in a duel. The guard still refuses to show respect, and chooses the duel. I'd say that's a strange decision for even a stressed out sword jockey. Why couldn't he just say, "Yeah, I'm sorry, I'll remember my place from now on." instead of "Bring on the duel, I'm not going to show respect."

I think it depends on the personality of the guard. I might play the guard this way to or even a PC this way. If my character really felt put upon and mistreated by someone she might just accept the duel rather than back down and slink away.

Personally I think there was some good role playing going on. The player was playing his PC has a haughty and arrogant lord which I have no problem with and the DM was playing the nPCs as a man with maybe for the situation had a little to much pride.

I like encounters like these and there are some good roleplaying outcomes to this. The guard could be grateful that the PC didn't kill him or he could become venegeful the PC could be impressed that the guard accept the honorable duel and try and mend the fences between the party and the milita or he could stay angry at the behavior of this uppity guard and go from there.

 

[Numion]

I don't agree with this at all ,the other poster was insulting the DM when he does not know how things work in that DM game. At least that is how I took it form the tone of his post. I am not the only poster who thought it was a little over the top in harshness towards the DM.

I have some real morons and tryants in my campaign and I have no problem with my players calling them that.

Same with me, I even like roleplaying morons when I DM. I was just surprised that you would equate calling an NPC a moron with calling the DM moron.

Let's face it; the NPC acted like a moron, let's forget the noble thing for a while:

1) Called a high-level character a bitch. That will get your ass kicked.
2) Accepted a challenge to duel from a high-level character. That will get your ass kicked.

I have no trouble calling someone who's begging to get his ass kicked a moron. In this argument it doesn't matter if the ass kicking is righteous or not.

Consider in real life: you think you have the right of way, proceed, and run into the Hells Angels local, scratching one of the bikes and one bikers GF. You get out of your car, call the bikers some bitches for getting the traffic rules wrong. The biker is having a good day, so he says: "apologize, or I'm a whoop your ass" "STFU, and your bitch girlfriend too, I had the right of way!"

Now are those not moronic acts? You might've had the right of way, but is it a good idea to piss off some bikers? The analogy is not perfect, since in the OP scenario I think the guard was in the wrong, but that doesn't matter. It's always moronic to beg for an ass-kicking from people more powerful than you.

On top of that, in the original scenario there was the noble/commoner division.

 

[Elf Witch]

Same with me, I even like roleplaying morons when I DM. I was just surprised that you would equate calling an NPC a moron with calling the DM moron.

Let's face it; the NPC acted like a moron, let's forget the noble thing for a while:

1) Called a high-level character a bitch. That will get your ass kicked.
2) Accepted a challenge to duel from a high-level character. That will get your ass kicked.

I have no trouble calling someone who's begging to get his ass kicked a moron. In this argument it doesn't matter if the ass kicking is righteous or not.

Consider in real life: you think you have the right of way, proceed, and run into the Hells Angels local, scratching one of the bikes and one bikers GF. You get out of your car, call the bikers some bitches for getting the traffic rules wrong. The biker is having a good day, so he says: "apologize, or I'm a whoop your ass" "STFU, and your bitch girlfriend too, I had the right of way!"

Now are those not moronic acts? You might've had the right of way, but is it a good idea to piss off some bikers? The analogy is not perfect, since in the OP scenario I think the guard was in the wrong, but that doesn't matter. It's always moronic to beg for an ass-kicking from people more powerful than you.

On top of that, in the original scenario there was the noble/commoner division.

I don't think the captain of the guard was very smart to call a cleric a b**** or accept a duel with a 10 level PC. That can be suicide by PC. I just understand what the motivation might be. But as I said I also think the PCs were not smart to allow the situation to esculate the way they did. But I don't think the players or the DM were wrong to do any of these things they made role playing choices for their characters.

I think the moron comment that made me go wtf was the comment that any moron knows that a vampire can't walk during the day. That was just rude. Because different campaign may play this different like mine and my NPCs and PCs don't always know every fact about monsters from the monster manual.

 

[Fenes]

To be honest I doubt I would enjoy your game very much because my PC would spend its time in conflict with the nobles if they treated my character like garbage just because they could. Maybe I am to modern to enjoy a campain with that rigid a class structure. But to be fair you most likey would not enjoy me as a player because of this too.

Most nobles will only treat your character like garbage if your character breaks the known and accepted rules of ettiquette and acts disrespectful. I see it as flavor in most cases - like when in a historical war movie a subordinate officer might say "with all due respect, sir, this course of action seems very risky" to a general, and not "You **ç% %&/ç** you will get us all killed, you +"*"ç* ç%&ç*%&!!!". Calling a noble or cleric "B****" would be the same as today calling someone the n-word - a very serious act of disrespect.

When I play a noble pC I don't tend to play them with the attidue that they can go around mistreating or bulling people just because of their birth. I play them with the attidue that because of their privilege they have a responsibility to those benaeth them.

Yes, but again - they have privileges, such as ranks and forms of adress they deserve - or do your characters address the Queen of the realms with "Yo, woman, we saved your rump, now give us the goods"?

As a DM I play my nobles two ways good and honorable or as tryants and I fully expect my PCs in the game to may be one take out the tryants.

In your game are tryants protected from being destroyed because they are of noble birth? Because you do realize these PC could be considered tryants you did read how they choose to destroy a town rather then save it. I pretty sure the people of that town rightfully view them as tryants.

I never said they are protected from being destroyed - but how the PCs act in such a ploy effects the light they are seen with. If they show no respect for rank and station, then that will reflect upon them. There are enough ways to destroy a noble while conforming to at least the appearance of socially acceptable behaviour.

If a noble took my PC to task for no reason and I lost my temper over it and then I faced major consquences then I would have my PC work in the background to find away to destroy the noble. Adventurers are not just common folk unable to defend themselves. You may have been born in a hovel but you now command the forces of arcane might why would you allow yourself to be treated like dirt just because of an accident of birth.

I completely agree. And most will not be treated like dirt exactly because of their power. But we are not talking about mages, or famous adventurers - we are talking about commoners treating nobles like dirt.

In my campaign, any adventurer who is growing famous and powerful will have a rather short path to nobility, since society tends to try to incorporate such people before they upset society. Roaming adventurers may take a bit longer.

And I fully expect noble PCs to smack down any commoner who disrespects them, just as they can expect to be smacked down if they disrespect the king.

 

[Elf Witch]

I completely agree. And most will not be treated like dirt exactly because of their power. But we are not talking about mages, or famous adventurers - we are talking about commoners treating nobles like dirt.

In my campaign, any adventurer who is growing famous and powerful will have a rather short path to nobility, since society tends to try to incorporate such people before they upset society. Roaming adventurers may take a bit longer.

And I fully expect noble PCs to smack down any commoner who disrespects them, just as they can expect to be smacked down if they disrespect the king.

I believe in realistic role playing and by that I mean I don't expect PCs to have a different standard of behavior than NPC soley based on their status as a PC.

If you read this from the DM POV he said that they treated the PCs with courtsey opened the keep opened the armory. But most telling he said these men were the "law" so while they may not be noble they were more than commoners.


They were doing their job which was to protect the keep they had no reason to believe that the flying cleric was what he said he was and every reason to believe from the six months experience that it was some kind of powerful undead come to kill them all. They did stop firing when the female cleric convinced them that the flying cleric was not a threat. Then after they stopped firing the female cleric started yelling at the guards and calling them stupid. IMO she was the one who was disrespectful first to these men who have the authority of their lord.

The fact that the guard then called her a name back was not really diplomatic of him or very smart when this cleric could cause him all kinds of pain. But in no way did the female cleric behave in a manner befitting her calling or her rank. Both of these characters were in the wrong but the cleric was in no way the wounded party she was behaving for all intents and purposes like a b****.

If a PC goes into a town that he is not from and gets in the way of a guard preforming his duty and then mouths off to him even if he is a noble the PC should expect some kind of consquence.

If I was a PC hired by a King to defend their keep and I thought the keep was under attack and I fired on what I thought was a threat and it turned out I made a mistake and I stopped firing and a noble NPC not the king came and started calling me stupid I doubt my PC would stand there and just take it just because this person is a noble.


In my capaign I would not have my rulers allow visiting nobles to smack around my guards who I have given the authority to be the law because by disrespecting that person they are ultimately disrespecting me and my law. Don't forget that duly appointment members of a noble guards, seneschal who are doing their lords bidding are said to be speaking for the noble and to not show respect to this person is the same as disrespecting the nobel himself.