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Lord or Tyrant?

Kahuna Burger said:
I'm afraid I don't see where the militia messed up here. See a possible vampire and wait to call in a consultant? yeah, how about follow standing orders instead?

If following orders was so important, why did they subsequently abandon the defense of the keep, and opted for hiding in the basements?

I wonder what would've happened if the PCs were defending the keep, and the original lords return .. in wind walk form. I guess it would be okay to wail on them, just to make sure, because they could be vampires.

BTW, in real life, most soldiers are really devastated by friendly fire incidents they've caused and are really remorseful. The first reaction isn't to yell back at the stupidity of their comrades if they're angry at being shot at. Even if it was on orders (there are some videos on this on youtube).
 

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kigmatzomat said:
No, not really. If you read the OP & GM posts, you'll see the local lord is one (1) level lower than the PCs (10th vs. 11th). So he is not only a true Lord (unlike the PC lordling), he is also an accomplished adventurer. Oh, and the lord has his own 10th level wizard, so you're basically looking at either retired adventurers who made good or combat-capable nobles.

He has more power than the captain. The Lord of the keep and his wizard are away, from what I gather.


FreeTheSlaves said:
Later that day the hero 'Priest' returned from afar (planeshift inaccuracy) by using 'wind walk' and 2 militiamen mistake him for some spirit and fire at him with silver arrows, wounding him slightly. Priest tries to parlay but he's about to be in for another volley when my PC's cohort, Grenwyn the Priestess of Ehlonna (9th level), emerges on the battlements and stops the archers.

She then scolds the archers for firing on (the now fully physically manifested) Priest, and one militiaman in turn returns the anger with interest, telling her this is not her place to be giving orders.

My PC emerges and sees Grenwyn getting aggression from the militiaman and tells him not to dare yell at a priestess. He backchats my PC, so he grabs the man by the tunic and shoves him up against the battlements and tells him to shut up. The militiaman shows little fear, and as it turns out is the leader whom was quite difficult to persuade to open the gate. My PC then tells him to show due respect to a lord and residing champion (my PC is a born aristocrat and self made lord on the fringes of civilisation) or face him in a duel.

Way I read it, the guards were preparing to shoot at the cleric even though he was clearly communicating his intent to parley. That's something to be scolded for, for sure. The first volley was ok, the second was stupid.

The PC Lord sees a guard yell at a priestess - yelling is rather disrespectful in itself, against a lady and a member of the clergy. The PC Lord corrects the man for his faux pas, breach of ettiquette, or what you want to call it, and gets backtalked for it - another breach of ettiquette in my book.

Our campaigns clearly differ, since in my campaign, not many commoners act like the captain did in this example. The captain acted rude and disrespectful in yelling at the priestess, and in backtalking to a Lord who reminded him of the proper forms.

Other campaigns may have other social conventions, in my campaigns, nobles and the clergy don't get yelled at by commoners, no matter who is a PC or NPC, without some consequences. That's like calling the street cop who pulled you over names and four letter words when he reads your name wrong, something you don't do.

The behaviour of the PCs in question did not give the captain the right to act disrespectful towards them - he should have followed the forms, and voiced his opinion "with all due respect". Fair for a 21st century? No, but entirely ok for a medieval society.
 

I don't really see a problem here, either way. Each character (PC and NPC alike) was acting to his or her personal dictates in a reasonably believable fashion. Deciding who was 'in the right' is too campaign-specific for anyone outside the game to really adjudicate, IMHO, though clearly at least one of the PCs and the DM have a disagreement about how such social interactions should work.

Kahuna Burger throws out certain medieval precepts, which is fine and quite reasonable (especially given how historically inaccurate D&D generally is). In her view, if I read correctly, social rank is not nearly as significant a factor in-game as it might be in someone else's game, such as Fenes, who expected the NPCs to be much more deferential. Certainly this is more a question of style. I don't see a 'correct' answer to the question of how either the PCs or NPCs acted in this situation.

We don't know a LOT of details about the game, the campaign setting or the characters involved. And it's possible that the players and DM themselves have never hashed these details out. Part of the fun is discovering them, for some folks.

I think it's safe to say that the cleric who was wind-walking made a tactical error in approaching the keep in wind-walk form. Certainly, it wasn't beyond reason for the militia to attack a mysterious cloud creature. Sure, it claimed to be one of those hired adventurers...but it could turn into a ghostly cloud-form; could shape-shifting truly be beyond it's capabilities? Could it be some new form of undead? The expectation that a guard captain in some remote barony would be an expert on the living dead strikes me as a tad remote. Firing first and asking questions later? Not a bad call, necessarily.

So the real issue is that the guard captain was a JERK. Then the PCs, one by one, back him socially into a corner, and like any cornered animal, he viciously bites back. He is defensive and rude to his 'betters' (which contextually could be more capable warriors or socially more endowed characters) and when challenged and berated for doing his job (from his perspective) he becomes churlish. When challenged, rather than look weak before his peers, he stupidly accepts a duel he knows he cannot win and is soundly humiliated. His men, seeing this, take it as a personal insult and in the name of solidarity decide to wait out the next attack bolted into a secure room to allow the (to them) self-righteous outsiders take care of the heavy-lifting by themselves. We've been told that the village has already had refugees flee the town, so it sounds like they're really only holding the keep at this stage...so they're not shirking their duty.

From the PCs viewpoint, this played entirely differently. They expected that once the guards were informed that there was no threat, that they would nod, apologize and move on with the duties of the day. When the guard captain, already on edge, reacted with attitude instead of contrition, they found their authority and potentially their misson threatened. When the warrior (Maugrim, was it?) came out and found the guard not only being rude but being insulting to a member of the nobility, he took personal offense. They quarreled and the warrior decided that the commoner guard needed reminding who his betters were; losing his temper, he rashly challenged the guard...and then soundly defeated him handily. By this point, he regretted his choice of actions...not because the guard didn't need a good thrashing, necessarily, but because he wished that he could have solved the situation in a more satisfactory method other than humiliating the captain in front of his own men. His conflict comes from the realization that he has failed to show some of the qualities of a leader that he had hoped to display, but found the guard intractable to the point that he was left with no other choice, due to his own social customs.

Again, I don't see a real problem here, if I've sussed this out even remotely close to what happened. The only real issue would be whether or not the players and DM agree as to the assignations and motivations and their relative goodness. (and for that matter, how the social chain works in his game). All of this assumes that the situation could have been resolved differently...and it's possible that it might not have been. The guard might have accepted nothing short of magical compulsion to behave a certain way...and that's, IMHO, fine.

To me, this sounds like a good role-playing situation, honestly.
 


WizarDru said:
I don't really see a problem here, either way. Each character (PC and NPC alike) was acting to his or her personal dictates in a reasonably believable fashion. Deciding who was 'in the right' is too campaign-specific for anyone outside the game to really adjudicate, IMHO, though clearly at least one of the PCs and the DM have a disagreement about how such social interactions should work.

Yeah, me either. There may be an issue over how the world works between players & the GM, but if they can settle on some mechanics to resolve that ("DM's word is law" would work) then everything's good.

This sounds like a great scenario, they just need to make sure everyone's on the same page.

WizarDru said:
We don't know a LOT of details about the game, the campaign setting or the characters involved.

I bet the NPC Cleric's name is Y'Dey and the Wizard's name is Burne. ;) (And the name of the Vampire lord is a secret...)
 



Elf Witch said:
Back in the time of one powerful catholic church Kings answered to the pope because he had the power to put the kingdom under interdict which would deny communion, baptism, last rites to everyone in that Kingdom.

I could see tjis working in a DND world where a ruler has pissed of the church now they are denying healing and other things to the Kingdom.

This still happens NOW. In Burma a few months ago, the Buddhist monks led street protests for a week or so, and one of their acts of protest was refusing to accept alms from the government leaders, soldiers, and their families . . . I think that's something like denying them the ability to confess their sins in Catholicism. Basically, God on strike.
 

WizarDru said:
Again, I don't see a real problem here, if I've sussed this out even remotely close to what happened. The only real issue would be whether or not the players and DM agree as to the assignations and motivations and their relative goodness. (and for that matter, how the social chain works in his game). All of this assumes that the situation could have been resolved differently...and it's possible that it might not have been. The guard might have accepted nothing short of magical compulsion to behave a certain way...and that's, IMHO, fine.

To me, this sounds like a good role-playing situation, honestly.

I agree. Quite interesting & fun.
 


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