Loss of class features for Eldritch Knight in exchange for becoming half-caster?

[Krafus]

I've been considering creating a campaign centering on an order of magic-using knights, and naturally I looked to the Eldritch Knight as the base class for the knights. Unfortunately, the spell progression for the Eldritch Knight, who I've sometimes seen referred to as a third-caster on this site, is just too slow for what I have in mind (in particular, I'd like my spell-wielding warriors to have enough slots that evocation magic will be their preferred option for long-range firepower).

On the other hand, the spell progression for the paladin or ranger, sometimes called half-casters, would IMO be perfect for my purpose. So with that in mind, I've decided to remove some class features of the Eldritch Knight in exchange for the improved spell progression. However, I have little experience with 5e, and so I have no idea of the number of class features I should remove, or if I should remove them from the Eldritch Knight's specific features, or the fighter's features, or both. I don't want this new version of the Eldritch Knight to be overpowered, or underpowered.

So I've decided to ask people who know this stuff better than I do. How many and which class features (can be from the Eldritch Knight's features, or the fighter's features, or both) do you feel would be appropriate to remove in exchange for the Eldritch Knight's spellcasting ability to match that of a ranger or paladin?

 

[JValeur]

I think you would probably have to say goodbye to at least 1, and maybe 2 of the extra attacks the fighter gets. Maybe 1 or 2 of the extra ASI's that the fighter gets as well, and I think you can take away second wind as well, without losing too much.

That's just first glance. I've been thinking about doing this myself, so I'll try to come back with something more concrete.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'd also agree that losing the extra ASIs the fighter gets would go well to cover the increased spellcasting. I personally wouldn't lose the 5th level Extra Attack, seeing as how the paladin and ranger both get that too as 2nd tier casters.

3rd tier spellcasting progression + extra ASIs = 2nd tier spellcasting progression sounds to me about right.

 

[steeldragons]

1) Leave the Eldritch Knight class as is. Just swap out the EK spell progression -of 1st+ level spells- for the paladin/ranger progression chart.

2) Leave the Eldritch Knight as is, but allow/make your order of magic knights allowed to take EK OR "Arcane Paladin"...Use the paladin class, as is, simply allow to choose from the Wizard (or Sorcerer if you prefer) spell list. Change "Divine Sense" to "Arcane Sense"...in name only. It can still do/works for the same thing.

or the more involved mechanics analysis/solution 3)

Fighters get/have: Base Features: 2 @ 1st, 1 @ 2nd, 3rd (Archetype), 4th (ASI), 5th (Extra Attack), 6th (ASI), 8th (ASI), 9th (Indomitable), 11th (EA), 13th (Indom), 14th & 16th (ASI), 17th (Indom), 19th (ASI), 20th (EA).
Archetype features (EK) come in: 2 @ 3rd, 1 @ 7th, 10th, 15th, 18th.

Paladin get/have: Base Features: 2 @ 1st, 2 @ 2nd, 2 @ 3rd (includes Archetype), 4/8/12/19th (ASI, so 4 instead of 6 times), 5th (Extra Attack, 1 instead of 3), 6th (Aura), 10th (Aura), 11th, 14th. So 15 vs. a Fighter's 16 base features.
Archetype features: 2 @ 3rd, 7th, 15th, 20th. So 1 less than the Fighter or Ranger here, as well.

Ranger get/have: Base Features: same as Paladins through level 5. Then 8th, 10th, 14th, 18th, 20th. So 16 instead of 15 (Paladin) base features. Equal to the Fighter here.
Archetype features: 1 @ 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th. So 1 less than the paladin here also. 2 less than a Fighter.

So, it would seem, if you want to convert an EK to a Half-caster based on a paladin, then remove 1 "Base" Feature and 1 "Archetype" Feature. to have numbers equivalent to a paladin.

If you want to convert it/feel it is closer in content/flavor to a ranger, then you can leave the base features alone and remove 2 archetype features to make it equal to ranger.

In either case, obviously, you use the half-caster spell progression. I, personally, wouldn't get rid of the cantrips though, so swap out one of the "Base Features" (maybe even a 1st level one) to include cantrips and use the progression as detailed in the EK so as not to be OP'd.

Alternately and ignoring everything I've just looked up and typed here, use a Bard base and flavor a knightly "College of the Arcane" and/or simply reflavor a Lore Bard with arcane magical fluff. Using Bard spell progression but limiting to wizard (or sorcerer) spell list...but do keep in mind that Bard's are [inexplicably] full casters in 5e. So you'd be getting "Spells/magic first, fighting second" from this flavor of "eldritch knight."

 

[The Crimson Binome]

You could also just multi-class between Eldritch Knight and Wizard. That would allow any given member of the order to vary between one-third-caster (pure Eldritch Knight) and full-caster (pure Wizard) in any degree they choose.

 

[Krafus]

My thanks to all who answered my inquiry. After a lot of thinking and evaluating various options, here's what I decided to do:

1) Increase the Eldritch Knight's spell progression to match that of a ranger or paladin. This means that the Eldritch Knight will start to cast spells at 2nd level instead of 3rd level.

2) Increase the total number of cantrips the Eldritch Knight knows from 3 to 4, as I believe that a heavier focus on spellcasting should be reflected in the number of cantrips. The progression of cantrips will as follows: 2 cantrips from levels 2 to 7, 3 cantrips from levels 8 to 13, and 4 cantrips from level 14 to 20.

3) A few posters have suggested removing a few Ability Score Improvements (ASIs) to cover the increased spellcasting. I really like that idea, so I've decided to remove the two additional ASIs (those at 6th and 14th level) that the fighter gets compared to the paladin or the ranger. The five other ASIs (those at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 19th level) remain where they are. This way, my version of the Eldritch Knight will have exactly as many ASIs as his fellow half-casters the paladin and the ranger.

4) Because my version of the Eldritch Knight has an increased focus on spellcasting, it stands to reason that he won't be quite as effective as the original version at fighting. So I've decided to remove the third extra attack that the fighter gains at 20th level. The first extra attack at 5th level remains where it is, but the second extra attack at 11th level will instead be gained at 14th level.

5) Finally, to further compensate for the increased spellcasting, I've decided to remove the Weapon Bond feature that the Eldritch Knight gains at 3rd level. I've always found that feature silly and besides, my version of the EK will have more spells to strike back with should he be disarmed.

So now I have a new question: does this new version of the EK seems viable and fair?

 

[steeldragons]

Sounds totally viable.

So, instead of spellcasting and weapon bond at level 3....they're going to get spellcasting...and cantrips (which other half casters do not possess)...at level 2? Sounds fair. The reduction of the ASI and taking away an Extra attack definitely works and makes them feel less fightery in a reasonable proportion to their increase of magic.

Nicely done. Kinda want to see one of these in play myself. Let us know how it goes.

 

[EditorBFG]

I kind of still think the paladin conversion suggested above would be the way to go. You could sub in some of the former fighter features to keep it more like the original Eldritch Knight, since you have to replace a bunch of paladin features anyway. Replace Divine Sense with Detect Magic at will, replace Lay on Hands with Second Wind, replace Divine Health with the Abjurer wizard's Arcane Ward, keep the Auras and Cleansing Touch as is and just change the names. For the spells, keep the focus on Abjuration and Evocation from the original Eldritch Knight. Then you just need some archetypes to replace the oaths and you're off to the races.

 

[Tony Vargas]

So now I have a new question: does this new version of the EK seems viable and fair?

Viable, sure. Aside from that, don't sweat it too much. Balance isn't exactly a major feature of 5e, mostly you just want to make sure that anyone playing this variant archetype isn't too brutally disappointed with it. Uniqueness, alone, will carry it for some players, others will insist on it being effective. Who, in your group, actually plays it will likely make a bigger difference than exactly how you write it up. Besides, it's up to you, as DM, to keep your players interested and feeling 'useful,' regardless of their race/class/etc choices.

For instance, cutting Weapon Bond makes sense because the feature doesn't fit your idea of the order, whether it's strictly called for to 'balance,' a fighter who can cast more spells is a lesser consideration.

 

[Krafus]

Belated thanks to all who answered. Should I manage to build up and start the campaign I described in my OP, I'll try out my version of the Eldritch Knight. I'll keep in mind the suggestions of steeldragons and EditorBFG for an arcane paladin, and I might eventually introduce it as well, but first I'd like to see how my version of the EK will fare in terms of both gameplay and player satisfaction.