Lost 11-10-04

[Felonious Ntent]

I love this show. Great characters.

My complaint right now is toom much character exposition. It seems like the mysteriousness and fear of the Island has taken too much of a back seat to the characters. The character exposition needs to happen, but I wish the Island would be more of a focus soon. (Maybe next episode from the looks of it.) I feel like everyone's forgot about the large creature type noises from when they first landed. No one is wondering what's happened to them?

Actualy I believe it was stated by the creators that the show was about the characters and not the island. This is supposed to be a character driven show. I believe the thing fromt he first episode was not originaly going to be there then but they wanted to put it in upfront so no one came back and say WTF is going on now.

 

[Mark]

There were some fundemental details not fully revealed, but that's not the same as a red herring...that's just a lack of information.

You're picking nits. Clearly they meant to (mislead) suggest certain things (if not specifically, at least by inference) so that they could enhance the surprises, which in the case of Jack was that his father was dead, Jin that she speaks English (whether or not you were ahead of the curve), and Kate that she was (in fact) the criminal being transported. (Further... Locke's secret was, of course, that he is disabled and Sawyer's that he was the victim at the source of the confidence game being played out in his background sequence, rather than the actual confidence artist.)

As to Charley, I leave it to someone else to fill in that gap as I was unable to catch that (full) episode.

I fully expect them to suggest at the outset of Sayid's background sequence that he is a terrorist, only to devulge by the end of it that he is actually a spy on the trail of a terrorist who now feels he failed everyone. The opposite would be no different, really...if, say, they suggest he was on the trail of a terrorist on to eventually divulge that he is an actual terrorist (and, perhaps, leave whether he is responsible for the crash up in the air for later in the run of the show).

I expect other such tales to include things like us being mislead to believe that someone is on a trip, having won it in a contest, only for us to discover it is the culmination of someone spending a settlement in a lawsuit against a drug company because they have become terminal due to company negligence.

I wonder how many other sensational scenarios someone could concoct, and how close they will turn out to be compared to some that they will drop on us in coming weeks?

I'm surprised to see people debating the shades of the colors, when my assertion is only that the colors are in play. If someone says that something is red, saying you do not think something is dark red but merely a light red isn't in disagreement with the point. I've usually seen gamer crowds as too clever to fall for what turns out to be cheap trickery in plots of shows. I'm finding it hard to believe more people aren't stepping up to say that they agree but are just enjoying the variations the writers are spinning...which is the last bit of spice that is making this meal we're being served palatible, to me anyway.

At the end of the day the whole show is nothing more than an expanded variation of No Exit by Sartre. They probably all died in the crash.

http://www.theatrehistory.com/french/sartre002.html

 

[fett527]

Character driven it is and I still love the show. What drew me in though was the mystery, fear and wonder of the Island. The strange noises, what ate the pilot, the mysterious distress signal, the strange man in the sneakers, I want these types of interactions to continue. The problems are becoming a little mundane for me: cave in, asthma attack, misplaced honor, drug addiction. Not that the stories haven't been compelling, I just want the mystery back.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I think one of the underlying themes of the show is that everyone has secrets that they carry around with them and keep at a distance from other people. Furthermore, it's these secrets that make people who they are. The show then is about the breakdown of this distance by forcing these people together in a hopeless situation. Therefore, in order for the show to be character-driven, it's important to reveal these mysteries. Now, in some cases they are twists, true, though in some they aren't, and which are which I'll go into below because I have more point to make.

The flashbacks serve not just to reveal mysteries about characters (who they are), but to show why they are the way they are. In contrast, we have the present, where we see not just who they are, but how their secrets affect not just them, but those around them as well. Tonight's episode was an excellent example - Sawyer's (who I believe said his name was Nate) persona doesn't just affect him, but it affects Kate, it affects Sayid, it affects Jack, it affects Boone's sister (what's her name again?), and so on. Furthermore, sharing the secret of his past allows him to move on and change... something that hopefully we'll see in the coming episodes.

Assuming Jun couldn't speak English because she hadn't yet doesn't mean the story was a twist, it means that there was stuff about her we don't know, and neither did anyone else. The writers did try to make it seem that Sawyer was the criminal instead of Kate, but they played on the tendancy for people to judge a book by it's cover, so to speak. Thus we go back to the premise of the show - that everyone has secrets, and while in some cases they're relatively normal (Charlie, Jack), in some cases they are exceptional (Sawyer, Kate, Locke). Just because you think you know someone, doesn't mean you do, and that's one of the big points the show tries to make. It goes right back to the pilot, when Hurley assumes Sayid fought for the US, because Sayid was a nice guy.

One note, the only story I think was deliberately twistful was Jack's, and thus it makes it hard to judge Jack's story. Really, Jack's only secret is that his father died, and maybe he was emotionally abused as a kid. That's not particularly twistful... in fact, unfortunate as it is, it's a relatively common story.

Also, it's hard to judge the show's form based on only seven episodes. Keep in mind that they do want to keep the show on the air, and people with normal lives are generally pretty boring. That's why we only see the stories of a core group of people. Few people want to see the flashback of how Jack performed a routine spinal surgery. Also, the show wasn't picked up for a whole season until after it became a hit - these first few shows (seven out of twenty-one, I believe) have to grab attention. As a poster (I forget the name) wrote in another thread about a movie, (paraphrased) if it doesn't have enough twists, it's not as good a movie as one that does.

As a final comment, it's readily evident that this show is about the characters and not about the mystery of the island. Anyone expecting an X-Files type show (which was more formulaic than Lost, IMO) will be sorely disappointed. It's been stated in interviews that they intend never to fully reveal what the monster is, or all the secrets behind the island. There will be allusions and there will be hints, but never the full story, because it can not compare to what we build up in our minds.

 

[WizarDru]

You're picking nits. Clearly they meant to (mislead) suggest certain things (if not specifically, at least by inference) so that they could enhance the surprises, which in the case of Jack was that his father was dead, Jin that she speaks English (whether or not you were ahead of the curve), and Kate that she was (in fact) the criminal being transported. (Further... Locke's secret was, of course, that he is disabled and Sawyer's that he was the victim at the source of the confidence game being played out in his background sequence, rather than the actual confidence artist.)

As to Charley, I leave it to someone else to fill in that gap as I was unable to catch that (full) episode.

There was no attempt to mislead in any way with Charley's story. It was very straightforward. And I don't think I'm splitting hairs, here. Kate's secret was revealed before her flashbacks even began. We don't know what she did, but we got her background pretty quickly. There was no attempt to mislead during her flashback episode. The revelation predated her history. Sun and Jin didn't really have a shocker, IMHO. The fact that Sun speaks English wasn't related to their flashback, so it wasn't really a 'twist' in my eyes...at least not in the way that you see it as one, anyhow.

I can see your point on Jack's story, but I thought they were very effective in keeping you guessing (and setting up some interesting possiblities for the future, depending on how you read it). Locke's twist was the most blatant, to be sure, and I really enjoyed it.

Sawyer was the number two...but there was no misrepresentation in the flashback, but in the backstory. The flashback happened just as we saw (and the consequences of it are probably why Sawyer fled the country). The twist there was that the letter he had was written by him twenty years ago...and he eventually became what he despised.

I agree though, that if they overuse the O'Henry stuff too much, it will get old. But I don't think we'll see too much more of it, from this point on. We've met most of the characters, and I think we're just going to build on that and start exploring the island more. However, I do expect some sort of twist for Boone and his sister (I'm hoping Sayid's story is more like Charley's).

At the end of the day the whole show is nothing more than an expanded variation of No Exit by Sartre. They probably all died in the crash.

If this was No Exit, it wouldn't be watchable. The whole point of No Exit is that Hell is being trapped in a room with your friends, for eternity. I don't think that this is the focus of the show, at all. I think the general theme is (suprise!) being Lost, and trying to find yourself. All of the characters are damaged and adrift when the show begins...but as time passes, they are healing and growing.

Some, like Charley and Locke, have already moved ahead. Some, like Jack and Kate, have learned but are not ready, yet. (When the student is ready, the master shall appear). Some, like Sawyer, are too badly damaged to be repaired yet, if ever.

I personally don't care if they take their time to reveal the secrets of the island...as long as they consistently move forward when they do. Self-contradictory 'x-filesish' claptrap would irritate me. I don't see the writing as cheap parlor tricks, any more than I did for, say, Twilight Zone (the original, that is).

 

[The_lurkeR]

Originally Posted by Mark
"Sawyer's that he was the victim at the source of the confidence game being played out in his background sequence, rather than the actual confidence artist"

That wasn't the "twist" actually, Sawyer was the confidence man in the flashbacks. The reason he called it off and left when he saw the kid though was because it reminded him of his past. The letter was not from the kid in the flashbacks but from himself, because the situation happened to him when he was a child. It helps to explain why he now has that self-loathing because he had become what he hated as a child. Not as big a twist as you're making it to be.


Originally Posted by LightPhoenix
"The flashbacks serve not just to reveal mysteries about characters (who they are), but to show why they are the way they are."
+
"Just because you think you know someone, doesn't mean you do, and that's one of the big points the show tries to make. It goes right back to the pilot, when Hurley assumes Sayid fought for the US, because Sayid was a nice guy."

Great post LP, you summed up alot of my feelings about the show.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Anybody else wonder about what Sawyer meant when, while being treated by Jack, he said "I've watched you die" to the good doctor?

I don't recall hearing him say that, but at a guess, I'd imagine he meant last week when he saw the look in Kate's eyes when he told her about the cave-in. Seeing her devastation at the thought of losing him, and (to Sawyer) the realization that people really can care about other people in a genuine manner. Probably unnerving to someone who spent his life using other people.

 

[Fast Learner]

"I'd've", not "I've".

 

[Cthulhudrew]

I tire of the overuse of the "Red-Herring-Flashbacks-thru-Surprise-Character-Twist-Reveal" convention. If most of the character background reveals were done in a more straightforward fashion, I'd enjoy the clever ones more. As for now, it's become almost cliche. I'd hate to think that the entirety of the show is going to be based on week after week of that same formula.

I actually thought Sawyer's was one of the first fairly straightforward reveals- as was Jack's. Both people are pretty much what they appear to be- a manipulative "villain" and a do-good "hero". Which was kind of cool.

Now, if they hadn't had the "reveal" about the letter (which I saw coming fairly early on), then I'd agree that it was sort of a mislead.

 

[Mad Hatter]

I think that the network and the show writers are doing us a service by the extensive character exposition. Think of it. What if all this show was about was the scary thing that lurks in the jungle? Yeah, that's entertaining but for weeks? Not really. That's relegated to books or movies. But the island provides a very important backdrop because otherwise these people would never experience the types of personalities displayed by each individual stuck on the island. I aslo like the red herring. Because seriously, what if they just hand fed us the backstory? I would write this story off as like every other show on tv. This type of expository device also has us riveted to our seats.

Sayid a torturer? A gentle, seemingly humble guy? He puts a decidedly human face to our enemy and highlights that they are people like us despite being on the opposite side of the line.

Locke a parapalegic? The survival guy? The desperate, lonely man that may or may not be actively hindering them? He helps Charlies, but gives Sayid a concussion?

Kate the all cute chick? The inocent looking girl? She committed a terrible crime?

Jack a coward at heart before he got to the island? Jack a doctor who's afraid of failure? Jack the leader?

Charlie the unassuming guy a punk rocker? A Rock God? Yeah right.

Sawyer the dick wasn't always a dick? That's odd.

In this show the island is just a backdrop to highlight major differences. I think they did an awesome job showing the person and then the history. It just enhances the total experience.