LOTR from a gamer's perspective

[molonel]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, live the lie and be happy.

I'll bet you sat that to all the sexy gamers.

I dunno, Superman is so much of a literary character that he'd not work as a PC. He's more of a DMPC. The rest of the Justice League are the PCs, then Superman comes by to fix things the DM specifically made impossible for them, just so Superman could win it.

You're proving my point. Played by a gamer, there is no reason to believe he'd ever actually lose a fight like that.

His build is certainly possible in a supers game. He's just at the higher end of the scale.

But, since I don't think like a "gamer", maybe that's wrong...

Well, you've definitely never played a supers game.

 

[molonel]

So there are all these elves leaving from the Grey Havens, to go live happily ever after in the land of the gods across the sea.

Samwise bumbles up to one. "Wow, are you an elf! I've never seen an elf before." [Sam pokes at the elfs sword] "Ooh, is that sharp? Can I touch it?"

Frodo makes Sleight of Hand check, inserts ring into the elf's pantaloons, aided by the distraction provided as Merry and Pippen emerge from the elves rations, clutching chests of elven personal belongings and frilly undergarments. (Three Aid Other checks giving him a +6 to his own Sleight of Hand, plus perhaps a circumstance bonus?)

Elf pushes Samwise away, with an expression of disdain while other elves scramble trying to get their underwear away from the pint-sized burglers.

Later, four Hobbits wave from the shoreline as the elves leave Middle-Earth forever.

Weeks later, Nazgul upgrade to flying mounts and end up not catching the elven ships in time. The gods kill them before they reach land.

Sauron says, "Well crap. These new rules that make you blow all of your exp making a magic item SUCK!"

Nice.

 

[ruleslawyer]

So there are all these elves leaving from the Grey Havens, to go live happily ever after in the land of the gods across the sea.

Samwise bumbles up to one. "Wow, are you an elf! I've never seen an elf before." [Sam pokes at the elfs sword] "Ooh, is that sharp? Can I touch it?"

Frodo makes Sleight of Hand check, inserts ring into the elf's pantaloons, aided by the distraction provided as Merry and Pippen emerge from the elves rations, clutching chests of elven personal belongings and frilly undergarments. (Three Aid Other checks giving him a +6 to his own Sleight of Hand, plus perhaps a circumstance bonus?)

Elf pushes Samwise away, with an expression of disdain while other elves scramble trying to get their underwear away from the pint-sized burglers.

Later, four Hobbits wave from the shoreline as the elves leave Middle-Earth forever.

Weeks later, Nazgul upgrade to flying mounts and end up not catching the elven ships in time. The gods kill them before they reach land.

Sauron says, "Well crap. These new rules that make you blow all of your exp making a magic item SUCK!"

More likely the Valar would turn the ships back from Aman before they could reach, and the Ring would be back in Middle-Earth... or worse, the elf finds it, puts it on, and assaults the West, only to have the ship sunk and the Ring float back to ME anyway. Gandalf makes very specific mention in The Council of Elrond that the West will not accept the Ring.

 

[ruleslawyer]

More likely that the Balrog would cause problems for Rivendell and Lorien, just as Smaug would have caused problems for the Lakemen, the Iron Hills, and the elves of Mirkwood.

True; little is clear of what would happen there, but it's clear from JRRT's own appendix to RotK that taking out the Balrog was an important factor in the West being able to win the Battle of the Pelennor Fields and triumph over Sauron.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Hrm, my players would have handed the ring to Tom Bombadil and then gone off to kill stuff and take their treasure.

Problem solved.

From The Council of Elrond, FotR Chapter 10:
"'But within these bounds nothing seems to dismay [Bombadil],' said Erestor. 'Would he not take the Ring and keep it there, forever harmless?'

"'No,' said Gandalf. 'He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian, and that alone is answer enough.'

"'But in any case,' said Glorfindel, 'to send the Ring to him would only postpone the day of evil. He is far away. We could not now take it back to him... [a]nd even if we could, soon or late the Lord of the Rings would learn of its hiding place and would bend all his power towards it. Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not.'"

 

[GwydapLlew]

Molonel, the problem with your position is that anything posted contradicting the Eagle Debate is shot down by you without consideration.

If someone mentions anti-air defenses (whether archers or catapults), you mention range - disregarding that the Eagles have to land to drop off their cargo.

If somone mentions Sauron's air units, you state that they are limited in scopre and incapable of handling Eagles - disregarding that there are no hard numbers (that I can find) on the Giant Eagles, just as there are no hard numbers on the Fell Beasts.

If someone mentions Sauron acting directly against an incoming Eagle, you state that the reaction time would be too slow - disregarding that we have almost no information on Sauron's powers in Mordor during the ending of the Third Age.

I personally would have loved if there was a paragraph in the Council of Elrond detailing the reason why the Eagles would not be used. There wasn't, but that doesn't meaning flying an Eagle into Mordor would automatically succeed. Assuming capabilities on the side of the PCs but not allowing the same on the side of the NPCs isn't a fair fight, and I know you know it.

Effectively, LotR stinks as an RPG. It's 'railroady' (although I don't have a problem with that) and there's a lot of background fluff that the PCs never know that impact the game (although I don't have a problem with that) and there is an enormous disparity between PC levels (although I don't have a problem with that).

 

[ruleslawyer]

Ayup.

of course it is.

The reason it annoys purists is because it's too simple, not dramatic enough and actually makes sense.

Or perhaps it's just completely in keeping with the entire set of "unwise strategies" proposed and dismissed by the Fellowship.

In short, the point is that an open assault on Mordor *will not work.* Flying Eagles straight into Mordor is in the category of open assault, whether or not they stop on the way to attack anything. It's an open display of might which, as Celebrim pointed out earlier, is entirely in keeping with the prideful antagonism that is doomed to fail, or be twisted to evil ends, when used against the Dark Lord. This is a *major theme of the books,* people.

If I were the DM, I would not allow this to work. I've heard it mentioned off and on for decades in the context of the relationship between LotR and D&D, and each time I have simply ignored any actual discussion of the issue because I *assume*, in keeping with the themes of LotR, that Sauron has plenty of might to defend against a flock of Eagles swooping down like fighter-bombers on his realm.

Note that Elrond *does* use the Eagles to scout for the reappearance of the Nazgul, which means that the Wise are at least willing to use them where they can aid.

 

[GwydapLlew]

...They lay now peering over the edge of a rocky hollow beneath the outstretched shadow of the northernmost buttress of Ephel Duath. Winging the heavy air in a straight flight a crow, maybe, would have flown but a furlong from their hiding-place to the black summit of the nearer tower...

...Then presently Sam thought he saw a dark bird-like figure wheel into the circle of his sight, and hover, and then wheel away again. Two more followed, and then a fourth. They were very small to look at, yet he knew, somehow, that they were huge, with a vast stretch of pinion, flying at great height.

So the Fell Beasts are large enough to see when they are over a furlong away in land distance and who knows how far in the air.

(Frodo) ...'But their steeds could see. And these winged creatures that they ride on now, they can probably see more than any other creature. They are like great carrion birds. They are looking for something: the Enemy is on the watch, I fear.'

...The Pelennor lay dim beneath him, fading away to the scarce guessed line of the Great River. But now wheeling swiftly across it, like shadows of untimely night, he saw in the middle airs below him five birdlike forms, horrible as carrion-fowl yet greater than eagles, cruel as death. Now they swooped near, venturing almost within bowshot of the walls, now they circled away.

..."See how they wheel and swoop, always down to that point over there! And can you see something moving on the ground? Dark little things. Yes, men on horses: four or five..."

...Faint and seemingly remote through that shuddering cry he heard winding up from below the sound of a trumpet ending on a long high note...

So from the walls of Minas Tirith, Pippin can clearly see the Fell Beasts, but barely make out the men on horseback beneath them. They moved quickly enough to travel the entirety of the Pelennor multiple times while men on horseback rode across it. Note how Faramir's horn is barely audible - that must be some distance!

Clearly, these things can't handle eagles. Especially with the emphasized statement in the quote above.

...The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! It was a winged cresture: if bird, greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between forned fingers; and it stank.

Again, I'm thinking from the description that a Fell Beast outclasses an Eagle. Just sayin'

...And from that evening onward the Nazgul came and followed every move of the army. They still flew high and out of sight of all save Legolas...

Seeing as the sight of the Nazgul is their weakest sense, methinks it stands to reason that the Fell Beasts are quite capable hunters and quite capable of flying as high as Eagles. Elf-sight is a pretty potent thing in Tolkein-land, after all.

Now, to counter all of this:

...There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and Landroval his brother, greatest of all the Eagles of the North, mightiest of the descendeants of old Thorondor, who built his eyries in the inaccessible peaks of the Encircling Mountains when Middle-Earth was young. Behind them in long swift lines came all their vassals from the northern mountains, speeding on a gathering wind. Straight down upon the Nazgul they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale...

Then the Nazgul flee. Why do they flee? Because Sauron called them to Mount Doom to try to stop Frodo. There is no actual battle between the two of them, so we can't compare their stats from the literature.

So...after all this long-windedness, I have to say that I think that Eagles vs Fell Beasts is an even match. I think that the Fell Beasts would be quite capable of fending off Eagles, and that the Eagles are large enough to attract attention to them. That being said, if my players attempted to pull this stunt, I'd let them...and then make sure I was well-versed in the aerial combat rules as they duked it out over the skies of Mordor. It's possible for the Eagle Approach to work, but it relies a great deal on the PCs making the right rolls at the right time, and no self-respecting demigod would leave something this important up to chance. IMC, of course.

 

[CrusadeDave]

Tolkien's Real Reason, and a possible reason that works in the movies.

If you have read the Silmarillion, and all of the Books of Lost Tales, this may make some more sense.

To Sum up: Eagles are the emissaries of Manwe. Manwe only sends the servants needed to get the job done. Manwe sent Gandalf to deal with Sauron. Hence no need for Eagles until after Gandalf completed his task.

Manwe, of course, is the chief of all the Valar. God of the Sky and Eagles. If you remember at the end of the Silmarillion when war was finally loosed on Morgoth, Manwe himself didn't show up, he sent his herald in his place to put the smackdown on.

When Sauron, a Maiar, declared himself the enemy of Men, The Valar sent 5 lesser Maiar to help rouse the people of MIddle Earth to a defense: Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast, and the two blue Wizards. Gandalf himself was Manwe's chosen Maiar to send.

Hence, Gandalf is the chosen enemy of Sauron and needs no other help.

The Eagles appear at the end AFTER Manwe's task has been completed as a sign of Grace. Not as divine intervention. The twice fallen Elves of Middle Earth, (Feanor's rebellion, refusal of return after Morgoth's fall), and the diminishing of the House of Elendil (Kinslaying, split kingdoms, fear of death) both made a choice to waver and fall. They needed to choose to resist and stand and fight.

That's why Gandalf acts as a counselor. A Catalyst. The guy who gets things going, but doesn't actually make the political decisions or seek power for himself, like Saruman. He acts as Manwe's agent, and acts accordingly. Give the forces of Men and Elves only what they need. Nothing more. Let them (Aragorn, Theoden, Eowyn, Frodo, Faramir), do the rest.

That would be Tolkien's reason.

Now if we're taking Movies, let's add another 2 reasons:

First, we all agree to Eagles are beings of great power and wisdom. As beigns of Great power and Wisdom, maybe they are more susceptible to the Ring's lure, and thus can't be trusted with it. Upon taking Frodo, they'd be tempted to seize the ring themselves, and turn into something beyond imagination.

Second, maybe racing to Mt. Doom isn't the wisest thing for a ringbearer. Frodo's will needs to be strengthened as he approaches the Volcano. Perhaps going there at a higher speed will make him fall to the ring's power. Maybe he'll put on the ring and alert Sauron. Maybe he'll get suspicious of the Eagle carrying him, and jump off to his death. Lots of possibilities here...

 

[William drake]

I dont know who, but someone said that Gandalf wasn't week because he took down the Balrog...and if anyone's read the book, they know that Gandalf didn't even know what it was, it was Legolas that had to tell him.

That point aside, ok, its a Balrog: does that mean its a D&D Balrog with all the spells and abilities...all we know is that it had a wip and sword of fire, it could fly and it was a demon. That's it, you cant just go throwing in other powers because since then D&D has added new things to the Balrog.

Ok, also, Gandalf was not a GOD...he may have been Godly, or Godlike since there were only a few beings able to do magic. Also, like Ive said before. The world is a much toned down place; very few times was magic even used, and if was, it wasn't as powerful as one would've thought a Godly, or Godlike being could have used. This is why I say Gandalf, nor Saruman, or Sauron were GODS..they wern't they were just much more wise and powerful than the middleages world they lived in. I mean, light, and raising the water of a river were some of their most powerful effects.


And I know somwhere I said somethign about someone saying "why didn't they just Teleport in" WHO SAID THEY KNEW HOW? I know that in the D&D Rolepaying book they prob have that spell, but who said that they had it as they were writen?

You have to take into the context of the world, just howpowerful these beings were. Yes they were ages old, and wise and powerful, but not to the extent that We, as gamers now think. Magic, to a much lesser extent was all but dead in Middle Earth, so if someone can turn on or off a light comming from nowhere in a room, then they are powerful. If someone can speak to birds or other animals, they are powerful.

I mean, in the movie they made Saruman shake the mountain down atop the group, but in the book it never says for sure that it was him, someone in the party, to my memory, just heard voices in the wind. Now I think that was Tolkien just making the wind more discriptive rather than implying that Saruman, or anyone was using their power against them. And even it were true that Saruman did do that, that doesn't mean that he can fly or teleport, or summon demons or whatever. You can just give these charcters power, you only know what is said, and from that only can you aruge.

Now, I know that everyone keeps aruging about the stupid Eagles, and I know Tolkien did't add a whole nother chapter of pointless dialog where the people at the councile aruged it out, but lets just assume, that, like in any other movies, or books, you are reading what is the important things, the parts of the long and indepth discussion that is relative to the book. I mean, the eagles were still birds..what if they were like "hell no, do you know whats in there?" I mean, why not like the sstandard evil place, animals just don't go there. In most stories evil places are baren, theres no life of anykind: plants or animals...so the eagles prob weren't an option because of that.


Someone else wrote, to the effect of "why was the dwarf even there?" I often wonder the same thing. I never really cared for the dwarves, the only one was gimliy, and the few at the meeting that didn't speak, the others were dead. My answer is just flavor. Why did Elrond or anyone else there allow the hobbits to go "because it was fated" the story was about myth, and you just go with it. That was there world.

Also, its a story. It had meaning, it wasn't a game, it had a lesson to teach, it wasn't just "complet the task at hand"

The one thing I did hate, is that no one ever said anything to Legolas about his people leaving the world and not helping, no one ever gave Elrond about not killing the king in the volcano that day, not even Gandalf.

And yes, it was cool in the movie that the Elves showed up at the battle in Rhond, but in the book no one came. and later it was only Legolas and a two of Elronds sons that went to the final battles. What I also didnt like in the movie, was that if Peter Jackson deciced that the Elves showed up at Rhohan, then why were there none later: what, did they all get killed off?

I dont know about you, but soe times the perfection of the elves got annoying, they could walk on snow without falling threw, they could out see anyone, were quiet, and could out drink even the dwarves. They were just the best, and no real reason for it, and then they were just leaving.

This is why many people don't think that Tolkien was the best to first show the world widly the things writen well before he was born.