LOTR logic question, part 2

[KenM]

Ok, don't know if its in any of the books, but its in FELLOWSHIP movie:
The scene with Islidur(sp?) and Elrond inside Mt. Doom, when Islidur refuses to destroy the ring, how come Elrond did not try to take the ring from him and throw it in himself? He is not as powerful as Gandalf, he knows how powerful the ring is, Elrond WOULD have done something to make sure the ring is destroyed. The ring would not have had time to over come Elrond.

 

[EricNoah]

Might does not make right. It's a theme shown repeatedly throughout the trilogy. Bilbo does not kill Gollum. Gandalf does not urge the killing of Wormtongue. And if you're a good guy like Elrond, you don't just grab the most powerful artifact in the world out of the hand of the king and chuck it in some "liquid hot MAGMA." You gotta let people, especially your allies, make their mistakes and hopefully learn from them.

D&D "good" guys kill far, far too often.

 

[Umbran]

There are a number of possibilities -

1)Elrond may suspect that it's bad for a mortal to have the Ring, but he does not know. Until that point, Sauron was the only person to ever wear the Ring, it's corrupting effects had never been seen.

2)If Elrond does know, then he knows what Gandalf mentions - taking the Ring by force is very, very bad. It greatly enhances the Ring's hold upon you. And Isildur would not give it up without a fight. If Elrond takes it by force, then perhaps her couldn't just toss it in the fire.

 

[KenM]

Elrond throws Ilisdur into the fire of Mt. Doom, destroying the ring, He comes out to the humans and elves. "Ilisdur sacrificed himself to save middle earth, he is a great hero." He does not have to take the ring by force, but just get the person with the ring into the lava. Elrond KNOWS ther ring was bad, in the movie at least. I forget the excact line he tell Gandalf in Rivendale, but its clear that he knows how bad the ring is.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I would say it was because Isildur simply outranked Elrond. Elrond was the herald of Gil-Galad, not his heir, while Isildur was now a king. Isildur claimed the Ring as weregild for his brother and father, and, given the fact that such things hold weight in Tolkien's world, this was his right. Here is what Isildur says when he rebuffs Elrond and Cirdan's counsel to throw the Ring into Mt. Doom: "This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?"

Just as a side note, while I thought the battle at the beginning of the Fellowship movie was great, I didn't like how Sauron effectively wuss-slapped Elendil around. This is how it went in the Silmarillion, which shows that Elendil and Gil-Galad were really pretty formidable, if you look at what is written:

from The Silmarillion: Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age:

But at the last the siege was so strait that Sauron himself came forth; and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down, and with the hilt-shard of Narsil Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own.

 

[Black Omega]

Elrond throws Ilisdur into the fire of Mt. Doom, destroying the ring, He comes out to the humans and elves. "Ilisdur sacrificed himself to save middle earth, he is a great hero." He does not have to take the ring by force, but just get the person with the ring into the lava. Elrond KNOWS ther ring was bad, in the movie at least. I forget the excact line he tell Gandalf in Rivendale, but its clear that he knows how bad the ring is.

Elrond clearly knows the ring is bad, I agree.

But it would never have worked. A clear theme in Tolkien seems to be using evil methods to accomplish good never works in the long run. Elrond murdering Isildur then lying about it would likely have ultimately led to something worse than what actually happened.

 

[DanMcS]

It wasn't in the book. Jackson wanted the flashback, and he wanted to show the ring not being destroyed, and he put Elrond there so we could have someone telling us the story in the 'present'. Thus, he couldn't have Elrond do the logical thing, and take the ring and toss it in the volcano, because then three blockbuster movies become an interesting anecdote Elrond tells the King of Gondor over drinks.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

It is in the book, actually. The Silmarillion, to be precise:

The Ruling Ring passed out of knowledge even of the Wise in that age. Yet it was not unmade. For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Cirdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it would perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness. But Isildur refused this counsel, saying: "This I will have as weregild for my father's death, and my brother's. Was it not I that dealt the Enemy his death-blow?"

From "Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age," as above.

 

[DanMcS]

Yes, but not necessarily the scene /in/ the volcano from the movie, where it would have been rediculously easy for Elrond to grab it and drop it in and be done with it, because the fire was right THERE, rather than grabbing it and being hunted by Isildur and all his men while Elrond tries to find his way up the mountain.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

The implication is that Sauron fought where he was strongest, right near the fires of Mount Doom. It doesn't seem unlikely to me that they were within yards of the Sammath Naur. That fits with the climactic nature of the battle as written by Tolkien.