D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

I don't have my PHB with me right now, so can't look up scorching ray.
For reference, it's 3 rays at 2d6 damage each.

As for magic missile--to put it bluntly, magic missile sucks far too much to use as a baseline.
That's actually my point. You say this, and in actual play (as a DM or player) I've found magic missile to be the most reliable and effective 1st level option. Burning Hands is awful range and terrible variance. The benefits do not outweigh the costs until you get to 3+ targets, and given that it only covers a total of 6 squares and you often have to include an ally to get over 2, even when you have that option (which is not common).

Not to say that I haven't seen it been effective. I used a burning hands on 5 zombies just two weeks ago. I'm just saying that it's a bad evaluation choice.

Watching our party wizard, I've repeatedly wished he'd taken magic missile. I've also repeatedly wished he'd use his longbow (elf wizard) over a cantrip. I've also wished he were courageous enough to use burning hands effectively (he's only used it a couple times when it would get 2. It frequently can't). Then again, I'm not the one who would lose their character by trying to do so ;)
 

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I personally feel the heart of 5E is "story over rules", so if a stunt like that - or the Rogue stunt you described though somewhat toned down - is believable and within the constraints of the situation it's all good.
In my experience living by every rule in the book as written will bog down each and every game: The party enters a tavern and goes gossip hunting. WAIT everybody roll 1d4 and multiply that by the price of an ale, cause that's how much drinking you needed to do with the patrons on average. What's the price of an ale again let me get the PHB. But I have a background that says I get every third drink for free so I need to get that into the equation. 45mins later and all we know is how much money we spent this night. Good thing we don't have to set up a camp 'cause I didn't keep track of how many pegs I broke last time I tried to pitch a tent!
Story over RAW any day, and 5E seems to champion that more than ever.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.

In our group, someone throws a gold piece to the DM and we just roleplay the tavern encounter without doing a single calculation.
 

Anyone who even considers judging wizards on the basis of damage output ... just doesn't understand the point of wizards.

I think the better way to say this is "if you judge wizards entirely based on damage output, you are missing a lot of wizard awesomeness."

I think it is totally fair to look at the wizard's damage and understand where they are going to have their strongpoint. It's as useful as understanding when to toss a web or a shatter or a hold person. If you have 4 guys in a fireball-able group, you are going to outperform the fighter on those guys with the fireball over something more single target. It might be the most useful thing to do in that situation.

Wizards have a pile of parameters to work with. Not every tool is going to be the right one.
 

A similar post like yours was made slightly after my initial one. I concur that the word "correctly" was a misnomer here.

The point is not to quibble over semantics. The point is that a discussion of house rules isn't really helpful when discussing existing balance, nor is a discussion of ad hoc fiat rulings even useful in discussing fixing balance (which to this point, I'm not convinced needs fixing). A lot of people have addressed the poster with the equivalent of, "I don't have the problems you have, because we don't use the rules." That's great, but does not refute the OP's assertion. Worse, some people don't seem to realize that they aren't using the rules.

I personally feel the heart of 5E is "story over rules", so if a stunt like that - or the Rogue stunt you described though somewhat toned down - is believable and within the constraints of the situation it's all good.

I would argue that this is false contrast. Story and rules aren't separate aspects of the game. The story shapes the rules and the rules shape the story. Claiming that the story trumps the rules is basically saying that your rules are bad, because the whole and entire purpose of rules is to enhance the story.

In my experience living by every rule in the book as written will bog down each and every game: The party enters a tavern and goes gossip hunting. WAIT everybody roll 1d4 and multiply that by the price of an ale, cause that's how much drinking you needed to do with the patrons on average. What's the price of an ale again let me get the PHB. But I have a background that says I get every third drink for free so I need to get that into the equation. 45mins later and all we know is how much money we spent this night. Good thing we don't have to set up a camp 'cause I didn't keep track of how many pegs I broke last time I tried to pitch a tent!

This taken at face value would assert that all rules are bad. In fact, since its all a straw man, all you are showing is that trivially stupid rules and poor play practices (the DM is enforcing a rule he doesn't actually know, and spending 45 minutes of in game time learning to run the game he's supposedly moderating) make for bad story.

Story over RAW any day, and 5E seems to champion that more than ever.

Those are both debatable statements. 5E seems to want to make better stories by having better rules. If ignoring the rules consistently made for better stories, you should throw the rule book out the window. But I don't think you can ignore the role of balance in creating stories that are enjoyable for everyone, and because of that, it's useful to talk about whether the rules need to be better, and if we agree on that, then in what fashion.

As a neutral observer with no stake in the argument, I'm inclined to summarize the thread as, "If you play a wizard deliberately suboptimal, they are at low level rather suboptimal." The conclusions I draw from peoples arguments are:

a) The game system is young, so you have few 'good' spell choices at low levels. Take the key ones, or accept that you've forgone your best choices.
b) A few of the existing options for wizards are traps, which is to be avoided in any system. This is particularly bad for Wizards because having a poor spell selection when you have few spells to select from drastically decreases your utility.
c) On the whole, the wizard seems to represent a compromise between 1e, 3e, and 4e. That's probably for the best.
d) The OP has inadvertently made choices that poorly suit his own personal play style - which seems to be heavily influenced by 1e/3e and the expectations of same.
 

For reference, it's 3 rays at 2d6 damage each.

That's actually my point. You say this, and in actual play (as a DM or player) I've found magic missile to be the most reliable and effective 1st level option. Burning Hands is awful range and terrible variance. The benefits do not outweigh the costs until you get to 3+ targets, and given that it only covers a total of 6 squares and you often have to include an ally to get over 2, even when you have that option (which is not common).

Not to say that I haven't seen it been effective. I used a burning hands on 5 zombies just two weeks ago. I'm just saying that it's a bad evaluation choice.

Watching our party wizard, I've repeatedly wished he'd taken magic missile. I've also repeatedly wished he'd use his longbow (elf wizard) over a cantrip. I've also wished he were courageous enough to use burning hands effectively (he's only used it a couple times when it would get 2. It frequently can't). Then again, I'm not the one who would lose their character by trying to do so ;)

I don't get the whole " I'm not the one who would lose their character by trying to do so" concept. Yes, wizards are a tiny bit more squishy than other PCs. But, they just don't die because someone sneezes on them. Even at first level, it typically takes 2 hits to take out a wizard, just like it often takes 2 hits to take out a Bard or a Rogue or many other PCs (and that assumes that the wizard doesn't have a defensive option like Shield).

I think that a lot of players overcompensate by playing wizards way too much like a wuss.


As for magic missile, we have a wizard and a multiclass wizard in our group and we've cast MM twice between the two of us. Yes, it is autodamage. But when the other PC attacks averaging 7 to 13 points of damage, a 10 point Daily spell just seems like a waste in most scenarios. The need really has to be there.
 

We had a bard with sleep as well, the wizard still took it. That is 4 encounters at level 1 you can ruin for the DM:).

No doubt. I just feel that the wizard's effectiveness in the game should be measured by whether he takes one specific spell or not. There should be a lot of good options, not just one.
 

Reading your argument, KD, I think you're right that low lvl wizards do less damage. I was succumbing to confirmation bias. That said, it doesn't bother me enough to not want to play a wizard.
 

No doubt. I just feel that the wizard's effectiveness in the game should be measured by whether he takes one specific spell or not. There should be a lot of good options, not just one.

There are more than 1 its just damage spells are not very good with maybe burning hands being an exception. 10.5 average damage is a lot of dead kobolds and goblins. a few encounters you will be level 2.

When you only have 2 or 3 spell slots you do not have the luxury of using abjuration spells which is a pain since you are an abjurer hence where I said IDK if that subclass is any good or not. Or wizards are a trans muter and diviner.
 

I don't get the whole " I'm not the one who would lose their character by trying to do so" concept.
Eh, I am far more willing to take risk than most players I know who play wizards (or clerics, rogues, or fighters, for that matter). I don't consider mage armor a wise investment when you only have a couple spells. I don't see why you don't charge up into melee to get a spell off if that's the only way it will be effective, etc.

But that's me, not other people. Maybe they're roleplaying more aptly than I am. At the same time, I've also been dropped within 1 hp of dying by a crit and the wizard hasn't, and I've been dropped twice when he hasn't at all. Maybe that matters? More awesome memories for me!

I think that a lot of players overcompensate by playing wizards way too much like a wuss.
Agreed. Mind you, I also think the system helps support that.

As for magic missile, we have a wizard and a multiclass wizard in our group and we've cast MM twice between the two of us. Yes, it is autodamage. But when the other PC attacks averaging 7 to 13 points of damage, a 10 point Daily spell just seems like a waste in most scenarios. The need really has to be there.
Your other PCs probably aren't actually averaging 7 to 13 damage. An optimized rogue might hope for 3d6+4 at 3rd level (and remember, we're really talking 1st and 2nd level if we're talking magic missile) with a 75% accuracy chance, and he's on the upper end of the range. Unless you're ignoring misses. At which point, hey, that's the entire point of magic missile. That and how it tends to bypass resistances from tons of things and is really good at finishing off foes.

Either way, I'm not trying to argue magic missile is a great spell. I'm trying to argue that the other options are bad. Sleep is the gold standard 1st level wizard combat spell, since it's the only one that doesn't have a horrible area of effect and is actually effective both against one solid enemy as well as a mass of lesser enemies. Magic missile is probably next, unless you want to make an argument for an illusion. It's certainly not chromatic orb or burning hands, which are both awful in different ways, though are worth having as backup options for trolls and mummies and what not all.

Also, wizards try to hoard their spells too much. "The need really has to be there" = "It gets the job done and saves greater than or equal to 1 cure light wound's worth of attacks against us". Your "big day" was 21 damage, when you could do 70 damage _every day_ by just casting magic missiles at 3rd level. At a certain point, "I have a 60% chance to hit for 5.5 damage" compared to "I have a 100% chance to hit for 10.5 damage" means that magic missile more than triples your effectiveness for a round.
 

Your other PCs probably aren't actually averaging 7 to 13 damage.

Yes, I should have said average damage on a successful hit. Damage in the game is not DPR. It's damage.

On the same round that the Wizard does Magic Missile, the two weapon fighting Rogue is going to typically do:

a) 1d4+2D6+5 (+1 magic dagger) plus D6 = 18 or
b) 1d4+2D6+5 = 14.5 or
c) 3D6 = 10.5 or
d) 0

Only d averages less damage and d is rare. Magic Missile is a weak version of the Rogue the vast majority of the time.
 

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