D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[aramis erak]

There are very few "when the spell starts to get cast, or when the damage starts, or when the attack roll is rolled before the damage, or when the spell is finally cast, etc." in the 5E like in some earlier editions.


There are a few sentences in the rules that seem to disagree with your interpretation:

1) You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration.

2) On your next turn, you gain advantage on your first attack roll against the target, provided that this spell hasn't ended.

3) You can't concentrate on two spells at once.

4) The effects of different spells add together while the durations of those spells overlap.


Your argument is that the first concentration spell still works until the second spell is completely 100% cast. But that implies an overlap that #3 and #4 above seems to indicate doesn't occur. There really appears to be a either you are concentrating on this spell, or on the other spell, but not both RAI and RAW in 5E.

The solution for me is to look at the present tense verb versions. The "-ing" versions.
"I am Concentrating until I am Casting."
Casting a spell is an action; the effects of which occur at the end, but the state of casting the spell begins at the start. So... am I casting a concentration spell? If yes, then the old concentration spell drops.

 

[keterys]

Everyone in the party has a Dex of 14 or better except the Fighter, and the Cleric now has the Alert feat, so the Rogue doesn't go first too often.

Wow, interesting.

So, in my experience (which is obviously not yours), the dual wielding rogue would run into the following problems:
1) Going before someone else has gotten into melee
2) Going when the melee people don't currently have enemies on them (usually via said enemies dying)
3) Not being able to swap from two weapons to a bow in the same round, and back, especially not just with a Ready (can only manipulate one object while taking your action, etc)
4) Ready with a ranged weapon inviting an enemy to close to melee for disadvantage
5) Sneak attack just wasted on any target that is eligible for it
6) Needing to use Cunning Action to get things done, so can't take an off-hand attack.

So while I find the rogue great, your experience actually sounds slightly high compared to expected. I also find the idea of not using Cunning Action (just about the coolest feature in the whole system) on the rogue sad, but hey. Mind you, things are a little easier if you can acquire a familiar on the rogue, since you can move it up as the ally, but there are some downsides there too.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wow, interesting.

So, in my experience (which is obviously not yours), the dual wielding rogue would run into the following problems:
1) Going before someone else has gotten into melee
2) Going when the melee people don't currently have enemies on them (usually via said enemies dying)
3) Not being able to swap from two weapons to a bow in the same round, and back, especially not just with a Ready (can only manipulate one object while taking your action, etc)
4) Ready with a ranged weapon inviting an enemy to close to melee for disadvantage
5) Sneak attack just wasted on any target that is eligible for it
6) Needing to use Cunning Action to get things done, so can't take an off-hand attack.

So while I find the rogue great, your experience actually sounds slightly high compared to expected. I also find the idea of not using Cunning Action (just about the coolest feature in the whole system) on the rogue sad, but hey. Mind you, things are a little easier if you can acquire a familiar on the rogue, since you can move it up as the ally, but there are some downsides there too.

Our Rogue uses Cunning Action a lot. It just depends on whether he wants to fight one weapon, or two weapon. He switches up a lot mid-encounter. Just because someone has a second weapon in their hand does not mean that they have to use it.

Our Rogue sometimes walks into a fight with no weapons prepared. If he needs to pull out his bow, he does so. If he needs to fight two weapon, he doesn't get the second weapon out until round two, but that doesn't slow him up too much. If he needs to cast a spell (off his magic dagger, or one of his own), he does so.

Just like our Fighter and Cleric sometimes use one handed weapons and shields, or two handed weapons. A lot of it depends on where we are, what types of fights we have recently been in, what we are expecting in the near future.

I think a lot of players get used to using the same tactics a lot, especially fighter and rogue players.

Last encounter, our fighter rushed in with sword and shield and attacked. He was promptly surrounded. Next round, he did a dodge action. Since he has the Sentinel feat and the Heavy Armor Master feat, and the Battle Master parry (and a party with 3 casters who can heal), he doesn't care too much if he is surrounded. A lot of players would just swing away on their turn, hoping to take down a foe, never even thinking to dodge.

 

[the Jester]

Just because you can make a heavy armor wizard dwarf doesn't mean it makes sense. And just because he is really tough doesn't make him an effective member of the party.

In this case, it makes sense just fine, and he's one of the most effective members of the party.

 

[keterys]

Our Rogue uses Cunning Action a lot. It just depends on whether he wants to fight one weapon, or two weapon. He switches up a lot mid-encounter. Just because someone has a second weapon in their hand does not mean that they have to use it.

Our Rogue sometimes walks into a fight with no weapons prepared. If he needs to pull out his bow, he does so. If he needs to fight two weapon, he doesn't get the second weapon out until round two, but that doesn't slow him up too much. If he needs to cast a spell (off his magic dagger, or one of his own), he does so.

Okay. I think I'm getting a much better picture of your rogue's damage than your initial post of four options seems to portray. That is to say, your rogue actually does a lot less damage than you described, and plays a lot more like how the rogue's expected damage.

Which doesn't stop it from being more than your wizard is going to do in any way, but at least closes the gap.

 

[KarinsDad]

Okay. I think I'm getting a much better picture of your rogue's damage than your initial post of four options seems to portray. That is to say, your rogue actually does a lot less damage than you described, and plays a lot more like how the rogue's expected damage.

I wouldn't call it a lot less damage. It really all depends. If a foe is really tough, it makes sense to move in, attack, disengage, and then move out. Less average damage, but also less damage to the party. Sitting around to do the extra D6 damage if he has already hit rarely makes sense.

Alternatively, on a surprise round he has advantage which increases his chance to hit. Granted, all other rogues get this as well with surprise, but with the high dex of the rest of the party, we rarely fail a group stealth check. Even the Cleric has +2 to Stealth with disadvantage and the Fighter has +3 to Stealth with disadvantage. This means that about half of the time, one of the two plate armored PC makes the roll. Not always, but often. The Bard sometimes gives the Rogue Bardic Inspiration so that he fails an important to hit roll less often. If the Cleric casts Bless, the Rogue is often a recipient of it (a much better choice than my PC). So there are times where the Rogue does more average damage than what I indicated. That's just his more or less default setup if he wants to do a lot of damage.

No PC is always going to be able to use their most damaging strategy. The example where our fighter Dodged instead of attacking is a perfect example of this. If a PC always goes for max damage, the player is sometimes making a subpar decision. Doing 15 points of damage to someone who has 3 hit points remaining isn't necessarily the best choice.

 

[seebs]

While what you say is technically correct, the DPR POV is somewhat flawed. The wizard is doing this a couple of times a day. The Rogue is doing it encounter in and encounter out. This means that the wizard player has to proactively choose when to cast and when not to cast. As a typical rule, he should be using Magic Missile when the foe has an AC of 18, not when the foe has an AC of 12. He should typically use Magic Missile on a single foe when the foe has a lot of hit points, not when the foe has 5 or 7 hit points.

Yes, the rogue should be doing significantly more damage than the wizard, in general, because that's the rogue's combat niche. That said, you seem to be assuming the rogue always has sneak attack, which surprises me a little. Usually, I'd expect the wizard to be plinking away with the crossbow (which won't be great, but won't be horrible) when they don't have more suitable combat actions handy, which is going to be fairly often. Seriously, even in PF at high levels, there were rounds when I used the crossbow because it wasn't reasonable to use my spells.

The Rogue player does not really have these concerns too much. He tends to kill one foe, then he tends to move on to the next one. Sure, he might use his off hand weapon once in a blue moon first if he thinks that his current foe is down to low single digit hit points, but for the most part, he just does damage nearly every single round. With a 60% hit chance (a fairly typical chance), his chance of doing d above is 16% or one round in six. At 70%, that drops to 9% or one round in eleven. That's once per every three encounters. White noise.

I don't think I understand how you're computing the damage he does. I would normally multiply each attack's expected damage by his expected chance to hit, and sum them, for an approximate estimate. And if he's dual-wielding, he should have two attacks, I believe, although unless he's spent a feat on "dual wielder" he's going to have issues with drawing/sheathing weapons. So he's pretty likely to get two attacks, and he can use sneak attack on one of them if he has advantage. Does he always have advantage? If so, something's sorta gone wrong here, because that's not normal at all.

But again: Yes, the rogue outdamages the wizard, that's absolutely intentional. The wizard's primary role in the party is not damage output. It's things like preventing the party from needing to fight a given opponent at all.

 

[Stalker0]

Yes, I should have said average damage on a successful hit. Damage in the game is not DPR. It's damage.

On the same round that the Wizard does Magic Missile, the two weapon fighting Rogue is going to typically do:

a) 1d4+2D6+5 (+1 magic dagger) plus D6 = 18 or
b) 1d4+2D6+5 = 14.5 or
c) 3D6 = 10.5 or
d) 0

Only d averages less damage and d is rare. Magic Missile is a weak version of the Rogue the vast majority of the time.

To ensure we are talking apples to apples, we do need to factor in miss chances.

I will assume a 2nd level rogue (since we are comparing it to MM) has:

17 dex (15 point buy +2 racial)

Two short swords

A friend on the enemy (so gets his SA).


I'm going to assume a 70% hit chance based on the monsters I have seen (AC 12)

DPR (Rogue): 10.876.
DPR (Magic Missile): 10.5

 

[chriton227]

He could cast Charm without the knowledge of the city guards looking for him because he charmed one of them.

I pulled both my 2e and 3.5e PHBs, neither one said anything about the target not being aware that they had been charmed. In fact, the 2e version explicitly states that the target retains full memory of what they did when charmed. When the charm wears off, they will at least know something was up since they will remember doing things that they wouldn't have otherwise done. Additionally in 3.5e it just set the attitude to "friendly" which I would equate to the 5e term "friendly acquaintance". A close friend that would take risks for you would be the 3.5e attitude "helpful".

He managed to cast it once where it did not instantly collapse the next round due to a smaller 5E area and no anchoring points. Helpful, but not really a lot of chances to shine, especially considering that about half of the foes have gotten out of the 5E Web on the first round.

I haven't finished reading the entire thread so someone else may have already pointed this out, but Web only automatically collapses due to lack of anchor points if you cast it as the full 20' cube.

If the webs aren't anchored between two solid masses (such as walls or trees) or layered across a floor, wall, or ceiling, the conjured web collapses on itself, and the spell ends at the start of your next turn. Webs layered over a flat surface have a depth of 5 feet.

So you could cast it as a 20'x20' square, 5' deep, and not need any anchors at all. And even if a target saves or escapes, they could be pushed back in with something like Thunderwave or by anyone in the party making a shove as a melee attack, forcing the target to save again. If they fail and are restrained they become prime targets for range attacks or even a burning hands (disadvantage on Reflex saves plus an extra 2d4 damage damage with no save).

I don't see where the low level wizard spells have been nerfed in general, most of them seem better in at least some ways, and the cantrips especially are greatly improved. Let's look at some examples:

Clearly better
Ray of Frost: 5e is 1d8 damage (increasing with level), range 60', slows, and unlimited uses. 3.5e is 1d3 damage (never increasing), close range (starts at 25'), no side effect, and limited uses (3-4 per day).
Alarm: 5e is a 20' cube, 8 hour duration, and can be cast as a ritual (no slot required). 3.5e is a 20' radius (larger area), lasts 2 hours/level (shorter until level 5), and takes a spell slot. 2e is a 20' cube, 4 hours + 0.5hrs/level (shorter until level 9), and takes a spell slot.
Acid Splash: 5e is 1d6 damage (increasing with level), range 60, can hit 2 adjacent targets, save negates, and unlimited uses. 3.5e is 1d3 damage, single target, hit roll required, and limited uses (3-4 per day)

Arguably better
Mage Armor: 5e lasts lasts 8 hours. In 3.5e you would need to be level 8 to get the same duration, and in 2e it lasted until you take 8 points + 1 point per level, so one or two good hits and it is gone. The armor bonus did get decreased from effectively +4 to +3 though.
Magic Missile: 5e you get 3 missiles that can be individually targeted against any target in range, and by using higher level slots you can get up to 11 missiles. In 3.5e you wouldn't get 3 missiles until you were level 5, get a maximum of 5 missile at level 9 (although still using a level 1 spell slot) and all targets had to be within 15' of each other. In 2e the missile progression is the same as 3.5e, but the targets all had to be in a 10' cube.
Chill Touch: 5e is 1d8 damage (increase with level), 120' range, prevents healing for a round, and give undead disadvantage on attacks for a round, and can be used an unlimited number of times. 3.5e is 1d6 damage plus a point of Str (Fort negates) but a touch attack (not ranged), can be used for 1 attack per level, and undead take no damage but are panicked if the fail a Will save. 2e is 1d4 damage plus a point of Str (save negates both), melee attack, can be used for 3+ rounds, and undead take no damage but flee if they fail a save.
Protection from Evil (and Good): 5e version is based on creature type instead of alignment, blocks possession, charm, and fear, attacks on the target are at disadvantage, and lasts up to 10 minutes. 3.5e gives a bonus to +2 bonus AC and save against evil, blocks possession, charm, and enchantment (not fear), prevents summoned creatures from making bodily contact, and lasts 1 minute per level. 2e is largely the same as 3.5e, but only lasts 2 rounds per level.
Burning Hands: 5e is a 15' cone for 3d6 damage (save for half) that can be increased to a max of 11d6 with higher level slots. 3.5e is a 15' cone for 1d4/level (save for half, max 5d6); so less average damage until level 5. 2e is a 5' cone for 1d3+ 2/level (save for half, max 1d3+20), so much shorter range and less average damage until level 5.
Shocking Grasp: 5e is 1d8 damage (increasing with level), advantage if the target is wearing metal armor, and unlimited uses. 3.5e is 1d6/level (max 5d6) with a +3 to hit targets with metal armor, but limited castings per day. 2e is 1d8 + 1/level, no bonus for metal armor, and limited castings per day.
Sleep: 5e is 5d8 HP of targets (can be increased to a max of 21d8 with a 9th level slot), no save, 20' radius. 3.5e is up to 4 HD total (on average 18 HP worth), save negates, 10' radius. 2e is 2d4 HD, creatures with 4+3 HD or more are immune, no save, 15' radius.

Notably weaker
Color Spray: In 5e blinds for 1 round, no save, but affects a limited number of HP of targets. 3.5e can KO, stun, and blind and can affect more targets, but save negates. 2e is larger (5'x20'x20'), affects 1d6 targets, can KO, stun, and blind, and only allows saves for targets with 6+ HD or more HD than the spell caster's level.
Charm Person: Big difference is duration, 5e is 1 hour, 3.5e is 1 hour per level, and 2e is until the target saves with the save interval based on target duration (1 day to 3 months)

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think I understand how you're computing the damage he does. I would normally multiply each attack's expected damage by his expected chance to hit, and sum them, for an approximate estimate.

What you are calculating is DPR (damage per round). Which is a good yardstick of overall average damage.


But what I was discussing is straight up damage. The rogue often does 15 or more points of damage if he hits because he often gets sneak attack (even without a second weapon, average is 1d4+2D6+5 = 14.5 plus criticals). No, he does not always get sneak attack damage, nor does he always hit.

But when fighting two weapon, he hits often enough to do serious damage. Let's say he has a foe with AC 14 (which is a reasonably moderate AC). His main weapon (a +1 dagger) has a 70% chance to hit and his offhand shortsword has a 65% chance to hit.

a) 45.5% 1d4+2D6+5+D6 = 18 (without counting criticals)
b) 24.5% 1d4+2D6+5 = 14.5
c) 19.5% 3D6 = 10.5
d) 10.5% 0

With 3 round encounters, he'll miss one encounter in 3 when fighting 2 weapon against AC 14 foes.

Fighting two weapon, his DPR (against AC 14) is 7.825 without sneak attack and 14.545 with sneak attack.

Fighting single weapon, his DPR (against AC 14) is 5.375 without sneak attack and 10.625 with sneak attack.

This is what you were discussing. So yes, if he can manage to get sneak attack damage, his DPR average is better than average magic missile damage (in the AC 14 case and in many cases).