D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

I pulled both my 2e and 3.5e PHBs, neither one said anything about the target not being aware that they had been charmed. In fact, the 2e version explicitly states that the target retains full memory of what they did when charmed. When the charm wears off, they will at least know something was up since they will remember doing things that they wouldn't have otherwise done. Additionally in 3.5e it just set the attitude to "friendly" which I would equate to the 5e term "friendly acquaintance". A close friend that would take risks for you would be the 3.5e attitude "helpful".

In 1E and 2E, the charmed person considered the caster "a trusted friend and ally to be heeded and protected"; furthermore, "any word or action of the caster is viewed in the most favorable way" along with an example of the target possibly risking its life for the caster against a red dragon

In 3E, the charmed person considered the caster "a trusted friend and ally"; furthermore, "it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way" and "might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing"

All of these sound more like a friend than like an acquaintance.

In 5E, it's "regards you as a friendly acquaintance" plus the Charmed condition "cannot attack caster, and charmer has advantage on interacting socially"

None of the rest of the original intent is there.


Also, there is a difference between knowing what you did and knowing that you were charmed. If a trusted friend said, "Could you drop this package off for me?" and you did it, in 2E (but not in 1E or 3E), you knew that the friend asked you and you knew that you did it. You didn't necessarily know why you did it. You just felt like it. In 5E, you knew why you did it, because you were charmed. Substantial difference.


Definitely nerfed. Downgraded from someone who considered the caster a close friend and might risk his life, to somebody who considered the caster a friendly acquaintance where social interactions are viewed favorably and after the fact knows he was charmed.
 

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Some live experience may be useful here:

I'm DM'ing for a party going through LMoP and they've just started fussing their way through Wave Echo Cave. (Some minor spoilers for those of you doing LMoP!)

In one encounter, they were ambushed by a swarm of stirges; they were surrounded. The wizard had two of them latched on and draining blood before the rest of the party had really figured out how to react. In desperate hope, the wizard (and here's the important part), as an Evoker, cast Thunderwave. Granted, the stirges have very low health, but this one act managed to destroy all 8-10 stirges in one attack (the Paladin and Rogue had both decided to pull them off rather than attack them for fear of hitting their comrades, and the Cleric had used his round to heal folks). Incidentally, they did fail their save, but even with half damage and no knockback the Wizard would have saved the party from expending many more resources--and maybe a party death--by a single 1st level spell.

The key to this combat victory was that the Wizard was an Evoker: Sculpt Spell allowed him hit the stirges but not his comrades.

Later on, the party again found itself surrounded, this time by zombies. Again, Thunderwave comes out. This time, the zombies make their save, and the wizard does a measly three damage to each of them. However, that measly three damage was done to eight zombies--so 24 damage in one level 1 spell, to a variety of opponents.

It seems like if you're willing (as a non-evoker) to commit to friendly fire, you can still dish out incredible damage. Obviously, this is not the best solution, but it does demonstrate that a wizard--with proper planning (the wizard's forte) can be extremely useful in combat as he is in non-combat situations.

Evhelm, remember that Thunderwave is a cube area of effect, not a sphere. Consequently, you can't affect all monsters that "surround" your character, only the ones that fit in a cube that the caster stands on it's side.
 

In 3E, the charmed person considered the caster "a trusted friend and ally"; furthermore, "it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way" and "might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing"

All of these sound more like a friend than like an acquaintance.

The spell description for 3.5e is self-contradictory. The very first sentence is "the charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly, see Influencing NPC Attitudes, p.xx)." Friendly is a defined attitude in 3.5e (and 3.5e doesn't say anything about acquaintances, I would assume by definition most friends are Friendly), defined as "wishes you well" and will "chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." Friendly creatures will not take risks for you, for that you need to change their attitude to Helpful, defined as "will take risks to help you", and will "protect, back up, heal, and aid." The fluff of Charm Person more closely matches Helpful, but it is very clear in stating that the target becomes Friendly, not Helpful. When I run into a contradiction between the stated mechanics and the fluff, I usually side with the defined mechanics. Charm does set you up nicely to attempt to move their attitude from Friendly to Helpful, but it takes some time, effort, and a successful Diplomacy check on top of the effects of the spell.

It also required opposed charisma checks to get the target to do anything they wouldn't normally do, like say a kobold showing a human their hatchery, or a devoted castle guard letting someone through who doesn't have approval. I have good friends where I work, but if they ask me to put something into service that hasn't been approved, I'll still tell them "no" despite the fact that we are good friends. Charm Person doesn't make the target stupid or an automaton, just friendly and willing to give the benefit of the doubt (I would say gullible, but I think that is too strong). A charmed McDonald's cashier probably won't give you free food, but he will tell you that getting a McDouble and adding special sauce and lettuce is cheaper than a Big Mac for effectively the same thing. And while it says that a "charmed fighter might believe you if you assured him that the only chance to save your life is for him to hold back an onrushing red dragon for just a few seconds", the "might" implies it's going to take some convincing, and just because he believes you doesn't mean that he is going to actually try to hold back the dragon.


Also, there is a difference between knowing what you did and knowing that you were charmed. If a trusted friend said, "Could you drop this package off for me?" and you did it, in 2E (but not in 1E or 3E), you knew that the friend asked you and you knew that you did it. You didn't necessarily know why you did it. You just felt like it. In 5E, you knew why you did it, because you were charmed. Substantial difference.

Nothing in 3.5e prevents the victim from knowing what happened while they were charmed; nowhere does it mention that the victims memories of the time are wiped or altered in any way, it just doesn't explicitly state that the victim remembers everything like 2e does.

But after the fact they no longer consider the caster a close friend, see no reason why they would have considered the caster a close friend, and are no longer under any compulsion to view any interaction with the caster in a favorable light. There is nothing preventing them from understanding that they weren't actually friends with the caster, that they may have never met them before, or that they might not even know the caster's name. The magic that clouded their thinking is gone. The situation is akin to the person who just realized that the person who was claiming to be a long lost relative was actually a scammer who took advantage of them. How strongly they react to that is going to be a factor of how significantly they were taken advantage of, losing their life savings is going to elicit very different reactions than just paying for lunch. They don't need to understand the mechanics of how they were taken advantage of to know that they were played. 5e does weaken it by letting them know outright they were charmed, in earlier editions if you were careful you could be subtle enough in your interactions that even once the charm was gone nothing was so egregious to cause major red flags.

Definitely nerfed. Downgraded from someone who considered the caster a close friend and might risk his life, to somebody who considered the caster a friendly acquaintance where social interactions are viewed favorably and after the fact knows he was charmed.

And if you notice in my original reply, I categorized Charm Person as notably weaker than earlier editions. I agree with your assessment that it was nerfed. I just don't fully agree with your take on some of the fine points of how it worked in earlier editions. It may just be a difference in how the game was played at our respective tables, Charm Person was always ruled on the conservative side in games I was involved with, particularly in the 2e days since it was such strong effect with a potentially unlimited duration, castable by a first level mage for the same cost as a magic missile. If it were to be ruled on the liberal side, the logical in-game consequence would be that the spell would be widely banned and any caster found to be using it would be subject to summary execution before they attempted to use it to take control of rulers or other people of significance, or even attempted to take over an area by just charming dozens of people (average commoner would get a save every 3 weeks, and would need a 19 to save). Mid and high level mages were already overpowered relative to other classes without giving mages the ability to have their own free army at level 1.
 

The spell description for 3.5e is self-contradictory. The very first sentence is "the charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target's attitude as friendly, see Influencing NPC Attitudes, p.xx)." Friendly is a defined attitude in 3.5e (and 3.5e doesn't say anything about acquaintances, I would assume by definition most friends are Friendly), defined as "wishes you well" and will "chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate." Friendly creatures will not take risks for you, for that you need to change their attitude to Helpful, defined as "will take risks to help you", and will "protect, back up, heal, and aid." The fluff of Charm Person more closely matches Helpful, but it is very clear in stating that the target becomes Friendly, not Helpful. When I run into a contradiction between the stated mechanics and the fluff, I usually side with the defined mechanics. Charm does set you up nicely to attempt to move their attitude from Friendly to Helpful, but it takes some time, effort, and a successful Diplomacy check on top of the effects of the spell.

Which sounds like there was a changed from 3E to 3.5.

And while it says that a "charmed fighter might believe you if you assured him that the only chance to save your life is for him to hold back an onrushing red dragon for just a few seconds", the "might" implies it's going to take some convincing, and just because he believes you doesn't mean that he is going to actually try to hold back the dragon.

I wouldn't read additional stuff into this. If the Fighter believes, then he tries to hold back the dragon. If the Fighter does not believe, then he doesn't.

I wouldn't throw even more restrictions into it like If the Fighter believes, then he may or may not try to hold back the dragon. The spell doesn't imply that.

Nothing in 3.5e prevents the victim from knowing what happened while they were charmed; nowhere does it mention that the victims memories of the time are wiped or altered in any way, it just doesn't explicitly state that the victim remembers everything like 2e does.

Agreed.

But after the fact they no longer consider the caster a close friend, see no reason why they would have considered the caster a close friend, and are no longer under any compulsion to view any interaction with the caster in a favorable light. There is nothing preventing them from understanding that they weren't actually friends with the caster, that they may have never met them before, or that they might not even know the caster's name. The magic that clouded their thinking is gone. The situation is akin to the person who just realized that the person who was claiming to be a long lost relative was actually a scammer who took advantage of them. How strongly they react to that is going to be a factor of how significantly they were taken advantage of, losing their life savings is going to elicit very different reactions than just paying for lunch. They don't need to understand the mechanics of how they were taken advantage of to know that they were played.

I view it more akin to being drunk. Yes, you can remember what you did when you were drunk, but a total stranger could easily be considered a friend while you were drunk. In fact, the best way to play Charm Person in earlier editions was to take your friend out drinking so that he would attribute his lack of self control to drinking, not to an unknown source.

That use of Charm Person is now explicitly removed in 5E. Even if you take him out drinking, he knows that he was charmed. The number of situations in which Charm Person is now useful has probably been cut in at least half by that restriction, at least for me.
 

I view it more akin to being drunk. Yes, you can remember what you did when you were drunk, but a total stranger could easily be considered a friend while you were drunk. In fact, the best way to play Charm Person in earlier editions was to take your friend out drinking so that he would attribute his lack of self control to drinking, not to an unknown source.

That use of Charm Person is now explicitly removed in 5E. Even if you take him out drinking, he knows that he was charmed. The number of situations in which Charm Person is now useful has probably been cut in at least half by that restriction, at least for me.

I agree on this part. The explicit knowledge of being charmed is just another reason why PCs should kill any NPC that needs to be charmed. The whole reason you are charming them in the first place is probably to get something you want in a subtle manner without a bloodbath. If you know for a fact that as soon as the effect wears off your victim is going to know what just happened and go blabbing about it all over the place, why would you EVER allow them to live beyond the duration of the effect?

It seems like all influence spells are like this in 5E, utterly useless to cast in any situation where you don't plan on killing or knocking out the target shortly anyway.
 

I will assume a 2nd level rogue (since we are comparing it to MM) has:

17 dex (15 point buy +2 racial)

Two short swords

A friend on the enemy (so gets his SA).

I'm going to assume a 70% hit chance based on the monsters I have seen (AC 12)

DPR (Rogue): 10.876.
DPR (Magic Missile): 10.5
Breaking it down:

Main weapon attack:
  • 65% normal hit for 1d6+3 (6.5) damage. DPR: 4.225
  • 5% crit for 2d6+3 (10) damage. DPR: 0.5

Off-hand attack:
  • 65% normal hit for 1d6 (3.5) damage. DPR: 2.275
  • 5% crit for 2d6 (7) damage. DPR: 0.35

Sneak Attack*:
  • 84.5% normal hit for 1d6 (3.5) damage. DPR: 2.9575
  • 6.5% crit for 2d6 (7) damage. DPR: 0.455

I get a total DPR of 10.7625 (did I miss something?). Note that when the rogue reaches level 3, the Sneak Attack contribution doubles, so her DPR shoots up to 14.175.

[size=-2]*Assume that the rogue will expend Sneak Attack on the first attack that hits; thus, if the first attack is a regular hit and the second is a crit, the rogue does normal Sneak Attack damage rather than doubled. So the chance for normal sneak attack dice is equal to 0.65 (hit with the first attack) + 0.3 x 0.65 (miss with the first attack, normal hit with the second). The chance for double sneak attack dice is 0.05 (crit with the first attack) + 0.3 x 0.05 (miss with the first attack, crit with the second).[/size]
 

Breaking it down:

Main weapon attack:
  • 65% normal hit for 1d6+3 (6.5) damage. DPR: 4.225
  • 5% crit for 2d6+3 (10) damage. DPR: 0.5

Off-hand attack:
  • 65% normal hit for 1d6 (3.5) damage. DPR: 2.275
  • 5% crit for 2d6 (7) damage. DPR: 0.35

Sneak Attack*:
  • 84.5% normal hit for 1d6 (3.5) damage. DPR: 2.9575
  • 6.5% crit for 2d6 (7) damage. DPR: 0.455

I get a total DPR of 10.7625 (did I miss something?). Note that when the rogue reaches level 3, the Sneak Attack contribution doubles, so her DPR shoots up to 14.175.

[size=-2]*Assume that the rogue will expend Sneak Attack on the first attack that hits; thus, if the first attack is a regular hit and the second is a crit, the rogue does normal Sneak Attack damage rather than doubled. So the chance for normal sneak attack dice is equal to 0.65 (hit with the first attack) + 0.3 x 0.65 (miss with the first attack, normal hit with the second). The chance for double sneak attack dice is 0.05 (crit with the first attack) + 0.3 x 0.05 (miss with the first attack, crit with the second).[/size]

Your right I forgot that the rogue doesn't get to wait to see the results of both attacks before choosing the sneak attack, so mine was slightly higher than it should be
 

That use of Charm Person is now explicitly removed in 5E. Even if you take him out drinking, he knows that he was charmed. The number of situations in which Charm Person is now useful has probably been cut in at least half by that restriction, at least for me.
Agree that this is absolutely the worst part of Charm Person and related spells in 5e. It makes them completely useless for the subtle manipulations it seems they are intended for (and certainly were used for in prior editions). Not only is it obvious, it actually makes the target hostile towards you, which doesn't always make sense (e.g.: using Charm Person to prevent someone not in their right mind from making a terrible mistake, shouldn't necessarily make them hostile towards you once it wears off).
 

I think my personal house-rule solution is going to be to allow the charmed creature a second save when the spell wears off. Success means it knows it was charmed; failure means it didn't.
 

I haven't seen the wizard in play enough to say for sure if they suck or not, but there is something that hasn't been brought up in regards to a wizard's combat effectiveness.

In a fight, the amount of damage you deal is important, but who you deal that damage to and when you deal that damage matters just as much. Landing damage on a glass cannon enemy is worth a lot more than that same damage on a brute. Doing your damage at the beginning of a fight is a lot more helpful than doing it spread out trough the encounter, because enemies will drop sooner and get fewer actions. The wizard is all about target selection and front-loading damage output. If the wizard gets the drop on a group of enemies and hits them with burning hands before they can act, that can change the battle in a dramatic way that non-casters just can't do. If the wizard smacks a high-AC damage dealer on the other side of the room with his magic missile, that is accomplishing something very important beyond his raw damage output, and it's something other classes might have trouble with.

If a wizard had comparable damage output to a fighter, then their versatility would make them insanely powerful. There has to be a trade-off. The wizard, even a blaster wizard, should do considerably less damage in a day than a melee warrior. The wizard's advantage is they do the damage to the right enemies, and they do it when it really counts.
 

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