D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Uller]

We started lost mines on Friday with a 3rd level party and I beefed up the caves for a 3rd level party.

Human Paladin, Gnome Arcane Trickster, High Elf Wizard, Wood Elf Monk and Half-Elf Warlock.

Encounter 1: Party is ambushed by 7 goblins and 3 wolves. The Paladin moved up with the gnome to check out the horses, just then the monk noticed the wolves as she snuck through the tree line and the gnome noticed the goblins about to fire...the poor paladin was surprise AND rolled badly in init and was filled with arrows from 2 shots each from 7 goblins while the gnome ran away...The monk and gnome were both able to reliably kill one enemy every round while the wizard and warlock are a little less useful since the goblins and wolves kept running and hiding so they never got a chance for a good AoE. The Paladin fortunately stabilized on his own...

Encounter 2: Sentries, Kennel and bridge - The Monk and gnome snuck up on two goblins at the entrance but failed to notice the wolf hiding in the bushes (and then rolled terribly and failed to kill either goblin). Once they killed one goblin and the wolf (After the monk was badly wounded) the party finally arrived to help. The last goblin tried to run into the cave to sound the alarm but was felled by the wizard with a longbow shot just as he got to the stairs leading to the kennel. The party could here 3 more wolves being released by the kennel master. So they charged in. The gnome moved past the kennel to ambush the wolves but noticed two goblins on the bridge and cast sleep on them, one fell of the bridge and survived (and woke up). Once the fight was over, the monk and gnome scouted the cave and found Yeemik's den and saw it was full of about a dozen more goblins. The wizard took out 6 with burning hands, the gnome took down 4 with sleep (two were wounded by the burning hands) and then the warlock finished off the rest with another burning hands.

After a short rest they tried to lure some of Klarg's goblins (he had 6 with him plus a dire wolf) into the main passage way with minor illusion spells...but instead that caused them to trigger the flood (and I added a rat swarm) and then they charged. The wizard downed a bunch with burning hands, the warlock wounded Klarg and finished off the goblins with shatter and the monk and gnome took down Klarg and the Paladin basically negated the dire wolf with Abjure enemy. After that it was all mop up...

Everyone was effective, everyone had a good time (I'd say the paladin was the least effective character for the day.

 

[raleel]

It's a matter of probabilities. Does your NPCs heal one battle in 5, 1 in 10, 1 in 100? How about your undead? Your dragons? Your oozes?

My oozes regularly are clerics of Ghaunadaur!

 

[pepticburrito]

Quite. One sure fire way to surprise players: Have the cleric of Erythnul use channel divinity: Heal Lots of Hit Points as well as mass cure wounds on his fighters.

At my tables it's not a surprise at all, they expect it. It's not that hard to balance and the players love the challenge of going up against intelligent NPCs with class levels. They also know to kill the casters first, if only so that the scrolls and potions aren't used in combat. That way, it's a loot drop.

 

[Sailor Moon]

I just want to say that you aren't going to always be optimal in all situations and if you feel like you should, then you are playing the wrong game. A wizard has always been a PC that requires planning and a lot of guess work. Sometimes your choices aren't going to be optimal, nor are your dice rolls. As others have said, you should be working as a team, not worrying about the DPR olympics. What damage the rogue or fighter is doing is not your concern. This isn't 4th edition where they tried to keep everyone around the same DPR. I believe what one's damage output is is not important in this edition. You did damage so you contributed to the battle. If you don't like the results then play another class.

 

[sithramir]

I agree that DPR isn't equal in 5e since its a different balance.

However, why I feel wizards are suffering is concentration. If the enemies target your caster he cannot do anything but concentrate defensively.

It seems a big deal and works both ways. If you win initiative and target casters they can either nova and die or be defensive. No real middle ground.

Monsters higher damage really means a caster has a much harder time at all levels since they can't stack a few spells to try to protect themselves.

A martial character usually won against a caster unless they had time to prepare a few spells and then they had advantage. Now there isn't really "preparing" as they only get one spell up and often have to choose specific spells to keep up a defensive concentration and still attack.

Its not that they are useless its that they took several BIG reductions in power in this edition. The sum of all of those seems to be a bit too much

Edit: I'm hoping we get a few "mythal" style spells that can give a mix or protections for the higher level slots that might be a cool way to help. Something that might be a good way to allow them one round if in a tough confrontation to stay alive. Only getting one slot of the higher levels makes me feel that wouldn't be unbalanced

 

[raleel]

However, why I feel wizards are suffering is concentration. If the enemies target your caster he cannot do anything but concentrate defensively.

While I agree that concentration is a strong limiter, I think you are overstating it. It's not a solo game. and anything? it's almost like there is not a reaction spell and defensive no-concentration spells.

It seems a big deal and works both ways. If you win initiative and target casters they can either nova and die or be defensive. No real middle ground.

some casters nova. not every caster has good nova potential here.

Monsters higher damage really means a caster has a much harder time at all levels since they can't stack a few spells to try to protect themselves.

3.5e ogre - 2d8+7 or 1d8+5
5e ogre - 2d8+4 or 2d6+4
3.5e ancient black dragon - 2d8+11/2d6+5/2d6+5/2d8+5/2d8+5/2d6+16 every round!
5e ancient black dragon - 2d10+8/2d6+8/2d6+8/2d8+8/2d6+8AOE

I'm not seeing this more damage. Maybe hit more due to bounded accuracy, but not more damage per shot.

A martial character usually won against a caster unless they had time to prepare a few spells and then they had advantage. Now there isn't really "preparing" as they only get one spell up and often have to choose specific spells to keep up a defensive concentration and still attack.

there is prepping, but it is less layering spells on top of yourself for 5 rounds before the fighter swings. I get your point I think, but... well... honestly, it was needed. Why play a fighter if you can just prep and beat him?

Its not that they are useless its that they took several BIG reductions in power in this edition. The sum of all of those seems to be a bit too much

Edit: I'm hoping we get a few "mythal" style spells that can give a mix or protections for the higher level slots that might be a cool way to help. Something that might be a good way to allow them one round if in a tough confrontation to stay alive. Only getting one slot of the higher levels makes me feel that wouldn't be unbalanced

They took some big hits, to be sure, but not all that bad. wizards aren't the easy button at mid-high levels anymore. You gotta play smart most of the wizard players I've met actually relish in thinking up new BS for their spells

 

[Eirikrautha]

I agree that DPR isn't equal in 5e since its a different balance.

However, why I feel wizards are suffering is concentration. If the enemies target your caster he cannot do anything but concentrate defensively.

It seems a big deal and works both ways. If you win initiative and target casters they can either nova and die or be defensive. No real middle ground.

Monsters higher damage really means a caster has a much harder time at all levels since they can't stack a few spells to try to protect themselves.

A martial character usually won against a caster unless they had time to prepare a few spells and then they had advantage. Now there isn't really "preparing" as they only get one spell up and often have to choose specific spells to keep up a defensive concentration and still attack.

Its not that they are useless its that they took several BIG reductions in power in this edition. The sum of all of those seems to be a bit too much

Edit: I'm hoping we get a few "mythal" style spells that can give a mix or protections for the higher level slots that might be a cool way to help. Something that might be a good way to allow them one round if in a tough confrontation to stay alive. Only getting one slot of the higher levels makes me feel that wouldn't be unbalanced

The problem isn't necessarily with the caster who buffs himself. It's what happens when the caster buffs the melees that makes this change in 5e so necessary. The concentratation limit prevents flying, blurred, invisible meat-cleavers of death from roflstomping every encounter. That's why the concentration nerf was vital...

 

[KarinsDad]

The problem isn't necessarily with the caster who buffs himself. It's what happens when the caster buffs the melees that makes this change in 5e so necessary. The concentratation limit prevents flying, blurred, invisible meat-cleavers of death from roflstomping every encounter. That's why the concentration nerf was vital...

Although I did see a lot of PCs buffed with spells like Bulls Strength and such, I never saw "flying, blurred, invisible meat-cleavers of death" in any edition.

I think the concentration rule was there to nerf Codzilla and Wizards that could do everything a fighter could do and a lot more, not to nerf spell casters from buffing non-spell casters. That seems more like a side effect.

 

[chriton227]

Although I did see a lot of PCs buffed with spells like Bulls Strength and such, I never saw "flying, blurred, invisible meat-cleavers of death" in any edition.

I think the concentration rule was there to nerf Codzilla and Wizards that could do everything a fighter could do and a lot more, not to nerf spell casters from buffing non-spell casters. That seems more like a side effect.

A player in one of my 3e campaigns took the leadership feat to get a gnome illusionist follower purely for the buff spells. By the time the were up around level 15, my wife's rogue/ranger spent many encounters with cat's grace, fly, improved invisibility, and mass haste. She was nicknamed the Polaris Missile System, with the enchantments on her bow and rapid shot she was getting 4 attacks a round doing 10d6 damage per arrow (plus magic bonus etc.). If she wanted to wade into melee she would switch to two weapon fighting, getting 5 attacks (IIRC) doing 8d6 or more depending on her weapon with every hit. Thanks to the stacked buff spells she was reliably doing around 40d6 damage to a target each round. We never had issues with self-buffing wizards or clerics, but I think that was more a matter of player style than mechanical options.

In 4e we didn't see the stacked buff issue to that degree, especially not from wizards, but we did see it from leaders. As we got into epic levels my Resourceful Present Warlord could initiate the curbstomp of doom, using a power that causes a target to take extra damage from attacks, a power that allowed everyone to make attacks as a minor action (with lots of extra bonuses), and then a power that allowed everyone to make a free action attack against the target. On their turns everyone would make 3 minor attacks with the damage bonus, and if the paladin got a crit he could use his epic destiny to allow everyone to get yet another free attack on the target. Plus everyone loved using that turn to spend their action points, getting huge bonuses in the process from my warlord. It wasn't uncommon for us to do several hundred damage in one round with that trick, and I think we might have cracked 1000 damage at least once thanks to crits and action points.

I agree that concentration was introduced to nerf CODzillas and wizards with stacked buffs, it is just a positive side effect that it also helps reign in the stacked buffs on the martial types.

 

[KarinsDad]

A player in one of my 3e campaigns took the leadership feat to get a gnome illusionist follower purely for the buff spells. By the time the were up around level 15, my wife's rogue/ranger spent many encounters with cat's grace, fly, improved invisibility, and mass haste. She was nicknamed the Polaris Missile System, with the enchantments on her bow and rapid shot she was getting 4 attacks a round doing 10d6 damage per arrow (plus magic bonus etc.). If she wanted to wade into melee she would switch to two weapon fighting, getting 5 attacks (IIRC) doing 8d6 or more depending on her weapon with every hit. Thanks to the stacked buff spells she was reliably doing around 40d6 damage to a target each round. We never had issues with self-buffing wizards or clerics, but I think that was more a matter of player style than mechanical options.

I wonder if this is an example of table expectations. I expect that if this happened a lot in one of our games back in the day and the DM thought it a bit abusive, he would just have a spell caster with See Invisible and Dispel Magic drop the flying invisible uber buffed PC out of the sky. And, an Improved Invisible PC wouldn't have his or her miniature on the table in the proper location at one of those old time games. Other players should sometimes say "Opps. Sorry I fireballed you." and that happens more often if only the DM and the player of the buffed PC knows where s/he is located.


In a high level campaign once, we scryed an enemy lair (something we almost never did) and then teleported in. There was a 3.5 spell that minimized this (Anticipate Teleport, possibly it was in the Spell Compendium book). It delayed the teleport for x number of rounds, alerted the NPCs that creatures were teleporting in, and the NPCs had time to buff and prep. The DM almost toasted us, even though we had prepped before going in. We were not abusing the scry/teleport scenario, but the DM still responded in kind for us using that tactic.