D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

So every party needs to have strong ranged capability for magic users to have fun? What if they don't have fun playing ranged attackers?

You shouldn't need heavy ranged attacks on a martial for the casters to enjoy themselves. If a guy wants to make a sword or axe swinger, he should be able to do it. The wizard shouldn't have to expend his single concentration slot to allow that player to enter battle limiting himself from other effective attacks. Those limitations aren't fun for either player.

You misunderstand. Fighters should take ranged attacks so fighters can have fun. In this case, the mage is mitigating the weakness by casting Fly, but that won't always work. The mage won't always be available, and it also introduces a vulnerability (if someone hits the mage, fighters go splat), and it also has an opportunity cost in other concentration spells. It's a bad situation to be in, not much better than solo adventuring.

If you don't have fun playing ranged attackers, well, I guess you can stick to adventuring in the Underdark. But seriously, why wouldn't you at least pick up a bow, even if you're not mechanically optimized for ranged combat? Isn't it better than being helpless?

It's great if you enjoy swinging an axe, but then you can't complain when Hussar throws a bunch of manticores at you and you're stuck swinging at nothing much.

 

[Celtavian]

it actually does add another dimension of optimization, yeah.....wizards (and especially sorcerers and bards) need to stick with a handful of concentration spells and look for a good mix of instant and (semi) permanent magic to round out their list.

That don't allow saves.

It's opportunity cost. If you launch a fireball at a legendary creature, he saves without using legendary resistance and you do the same damage with a 3rd or higher level slot with a cantrip. Why would you cast that? That limits you to a spell like scorching ray or chromatic orb. A no save attack spell that does decent damage. You can't cast Bigby's or Flaming Sphere, your best bang for the buck damage spells because concentration. You don't want to cast spells with saves because the creature has good saves or will auto-save if you do good damage with legendary resistance. You're back to scorching ray.

Spells are very weak (effect or damage spells) compared to martial damage. Often it is pointless to try to land them when an action surging fighter or smiting paladin is going to eliminate the threat before you pierce the legendary resistance of a creature. There is so much working against magic at this point that you feel like casting is useless:

All things working against magic:
1. Concentration
2. Save every round.
3. Magic Resistance giving advantage on all saves.
4. Legendary Resistance
5. Immunities and/or damage resistance
6. Senses against illusions.
7. Unforeseen special abilities that hammer spells like reflection.

It all adds up to not much fun for a caster. It's like they took all the other limitations they've been adding for years and added a new one. It makes casters boring and limited. Very little outside the box or creative problem solving that attracts caster players to the caster classes.

 

[Celtavian]

I would say that it is not only "not fun", but also "not very effective".

Our 5th level Rogue, Paladin, and Fighter all average around 20 points of damage on rounds that they hit.

Bard and Wizards? A lot less effective.


And so many people made fun of my ideas when I started this thread and when I started the Concentration thread. The combination of a) nerfing the utility of spells, b) adding concentration to so many spells and hence, limiting what can typically be cast in the same encounter, and c) the number of spells that allow save every single round, has made the Wizard the red headed stepchild of 5E.

My solution is to allow multiple concentration spells at a penalty, but I suspect that some of the spell casting classes (wizard, bard, and sorcerer) will start becoming less and less popular in polls a year from now.

Turns out you were right. Not sure what can be done about it. Yeah, I'm starting to get bored of my caster. I see the martials having fun with their abilities and dishing truck tons of damage without having to worry about concentration, while I manage my limited spell slots against monsters with all types of resistance to magic. The most powerful fighter ability, action surge, refreshes on a short rest allowing them to unload with it usually a few times a day.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That don't allow saves.

It's opportunity cost. If you launch a fireball at a legendary creature, he saves without using legendary resistance and you do the same damage with a 3rd or higher level slot with a cantrip. Why would you cast that? That limits you to a spell like scorching ray or chromatic orb. A no save attack spell that does decent damage. You can't cast Bigby's or Flaming Sphere, your best bang for the buck damage spells because concentration. You don't want to cast spells with saves because the creature has good saves or will auto-save if you do good damage with legendary resistance. You're back to scorching ray.

Spells are very weak (effect or damage spells) compared to martial damage. Often it is pointless to try to land them when an action surging fighter or smiting paladin is going to eliminate the threat before you pierce the legendary resistance of a creature. There is so much working against magic at this point that you feel like casting is useless

1.) If the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat, why do you even want to spend spell slots on it? That's not efficient. Just plink away with cantrips and move on to the next threat.
2.) Either use summoning spells (Conjure Minor Elemental!), or use cheap-but-effective spells like Blindness to whittle away at Legendary Resistance (targeting the weak saves) before you blow expensive spells.
3.) Enjoy leveraging enhancing/protecting spells like Bless or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.
4.) If none of this sounds like fun to you then yes, don't play a wizard in 5E. You're not cut out for it.

 

[Eejit]

+1

I'm also not getting the continued outrage at Fireball proving sub-optimal against a single enemy.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

1.) If the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat, why do you even want to spend spell slots on it? That's not efficient. Just plink away with cantrips and move on to the next threat.
2.) Either use summoning spells (Conjure Minor Elemental!), or use cheap-but-effective spells like Blindness to whittle away at Legendary Resistance (targeting the weak saves) before you blow expensive spells.
3.) Enjoy leveraging enhancing/protecting spells like Bless or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.
4.) If none of this sounds like fun to you then yes, don't play a wizard in 5E. You're not cut out for it.

Another example: Do something like polymorph the...individual... who somehow made it to that level without a ranged weapon into something like a Giant Ape with 150 *EXTRA* hps and a solid 30 damage ranged attack...

 

[KarinsDad]

1.) If the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat, why do you even want to spend spell slots on it? That's not efficient. Just plink away with cantrips and move on to the next threat.

How does the Wizard know that the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat every time? Maybe your DM "bloodies" as per the sidebar on page 197, but maybe he doesn't.

2.) Either use summoning spells (Conjure Minor Elemental!), or use cheap-but-effective spells like Blindness to whittle away at Legendary Resistance (targeting the weak saves) before you blow expensive spells.

Legendary Resistance just seems like a poor mechanic because it is auto-save. What it should be is "re-roll the save" so that it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Very few game elements are "I decide to automatically win the roll". In fact, I think I'll be changing it to that in my game because I know that some of my players will get frustrated if the NPC auto-saves.

It's a cheap rule designed to prevent the spell casters from kicking butt with a single spell. Course because WotC nerfed the spells so heavily, very few spells kick butt. Hold Monster comes to mind, but then again, Hold Monster tends to only last a short time against any creature with Legendary Resistance anyway since those monsters tend to have good saves and Hold Monster saves every round.

3.) Enjoy leveraging enhancing/protecting spells like Bless or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

If that is what your wizard is into, great. It's the same discussion as level one. If the level one wizard does not take Sleep, he tends to be heavily disadvantaged as compared to a wizard that does.

4.) If none of this sounds like fun to you then yes, don't play a wizard in 5E. You're not cut out for it.

Yes, this does tend to be the stock answer.

If playing the wizard the way you like to play wizards is not possible, pick something else.

This, to me, is not an objective way to look at the issue. It's the "WotC can do no wrong" way to look at things.

Celtavian was earlier in the thread stating similar things, until he played a wizard for many levels. He was on your side of the fence making similar arguments to what you were.

So, my response to your #4 is, go play a wizard for three months in a game where the other PCs are optimized and then come back and tell me how great wizards are. No doubt, there will still be people who play 5E wizards who will still like them after playing them for extended periods of time. But I suspect that as time goes on and more and more people get actual time experience with wizards, the percentage of players who like being a fifth wheel most of the time will diminish.

I've played wizards historically since my first pre-1E PC. Color me unimpressed.

 

[Zaran]

That don't allow saves.

It's opportunity cost. If you launch a fireball at a legendary creature, he saves without using legendary resistance and you do the same damage with a 3rd or higher level slot with a cantrip. Why would you cast that? That limits you to a spell like scorching ray or chromatic orb. A no save attack spell that does decent damage. You can't cast Bigby's or Flaming Sphere, your best bang for the buck damage spells because concentration. You don't want to cast spells with saves because the creature has good saves or will auto-save if you do good damage with legendary resistance. You're back to scorching ray.

Spells are very weak (effect or damage spells) compared to martial damage. Often it is pointless to try to land them when an action surging fighter or smiting paladin is going to eliminate the threat before you pierce the legendary resistance of a creature. There is so much working against magic at this point that you feel like casting is useless:

All things working against magic:
1. Concentration
2. Save every round.
3. Magic Resistance giving advantage on all saves.
4. Legendary Resistance
5. Immunities and/or damage resistance
6. Senses against illusions.
7. Unforeseen special abilities that hammer spells like reflection.

It all adds up to not much fun for a caster. It's like they took all the other limitations they've been adding for years and added a new one. It makes casters boring and limited. Very little outside the box or creative problem solving that attracts caster players to the caster classes.

I think you missed one.

8. Reduced amount of spells per level. This effects everyone and not just wizards but it's a big issue. It means healers are less effective. It means when you cast a big spell and it gets legendary resisted or in the case of attack spells misses than you wasted a good portion of your power for nothing. Plus, there is no incentive to cast low level spells at higher level.

 

[KarinsDad]

Turns out you were right. Not sure what can be done about it. Yeah, I'm starting to get bored of my caster. I see the martials having fun with their abilities and dishing truck tons of damage without having to worry about concentration, while I manage my limited spell slots against monsters with all types of resistance to magic. The most powerful fighter ability, action surge, refreshes on a short rest allowing them to unload with it usually a few times a day.

To me, the easiest answer is to allow the PCs to use more than one concentration spell at the same time. That way, the spell casters can do stuff like Web and Hold Monster and a few others on the real tough foes and feel like they are contributing because it's not just monster autosave every spell that fails. It also requires the least number of changes to the rules.

They can also do Fly and Invisibility and Blur a few other defensive spells. As is, defense is almost non-existent in 5E because it tends to be one spell (not including Mage Armor which is a AC spell slot penalty spell, and Mirror Image).

 

[KarinsDad]

I think you missed one.

8. Reduced amount of spells per level. This effects everyone and not just wizards but it's a big issue. It means healers are less effective. It means when you cast a big spell and it gets legendary resisted or in the case of attack spells misses than you wasted a good portion of your power for nothing. Plus, there is no incentive to cast low level spells at higher level.

9. There is also a defense that is anti-fighter. Resistance. However in most games, the fighter eventually gets a magic weapon (or has the Magic Weapon spell cast on his weapon) and this defense vanishes. None of the anti-caster defenses vanish. All of them are there throughout the life cycle of the game.