D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[KarinsDad]

I'd be curious which spellcasters you think are far more effective than wizards?

At low level?

Bards for one. They have several of the Wizard spells (Charm and Sleep and Thunderwave) plus Cure Wounds, Healing Word, and Faerie Fire. At second level they have Shatter, Invisibility and Hold Person, and the ever cool Suggestion. And Vicious Mockery mostly means that they can potentially defensively lock up one foe for a goodly portion of a fight.

They also tend to have basically as good AC without using up a slot for Mage Armor, and tend to fight slightly better with weapons.

Above 4th level, though, Wizards easily win out (although Web does give the Wizards a lot of utility even at level 3).


Druids get Entangle/Thunderwave (plus Cure Wounds, etc.) at level one and of course, Bear form can be huge in combat.


And a Tempest Cleric seems to be able to hold their own as well as a low level Wizard since they have Fog Cloud for the defensive requirement, their normal Cure/Buffs, and Spiritual Weapon/Spirit Guardians for extra damage. Wizards have to cast both Mage Armor and Shield to get up to Cleric AC levels (and then only briefly) and are nowhere near as effective with weapons.


All of these classes are more effective than wizards at low level. They might not be as effective in one single situation that one single wizard spell is perfect for, but overall throughout the adventuring day, they add more to the group, kill more foes, take less damage, and overall just get more done.


The main thing that Wizards have going for them are Familiars (and the Sleep spell ). This, of course, assumes that the DM never kills the familiar and forces the wizard to recreate it at 10 GP (of specially acquired components) a pop. And the utility of a familiar is DM dependent.

For example, most familiars have an intelligence of 2. That's not very bright. So if the DM lets the player send his familiar out 3 miles and report back that 8 orcs are on the way, that might be a bit more than a familiar would actually understand. A familiar might not recognize a difference between a dozen orcs or a dozen deer or a dozen centaur. It might not recognize the difference between 4 orcs and a dozen orcs.


Wizards also have some versatility that the other classes do not. But most of this tends not to occur in game since the wizard player does not necessarily have the PC learn or prep the situationally dependent miscellaneous spells a lot (like Comprehend Languages, or Detect Magic, or Unseen Servant). The class has the spell, but the PC often does not.


This all goes out the window at level 5. Once Wizards get Fireball, they tend to take a major step forward.

 

[Tony Vargas]

At low level?

Bards for one. They have several of the Wizard spells (Charm and Sleep and Thunderwave) plus Cure Wounds, Healing Word, and Faerie Fire. At second level they have Shatter, Invisibility and Hold Person, and the ever cool Suggestion.

Tasha's Laughter is pretty good too. But, IMX, at low level, if you have Cure Wounds, you cast Cure Wounds, a lot. It's more a burden than an added option. At higher levels, that effect is moderated a bit, as you're not constantly needing to bring PCs back up.

Above 4th level, though, Wizards easily win out (although Web does give the Wizards a lot of utility even at level 3).

You are aware that levels 1-4 go /very/ quickly, I assume.

Druids get Entangle/Thunderwave (plus Cure Wounds, etc.) at level one and of course, Bear form can be huge in combat.

Druids are pretty awesome, they certainly stay in Tier 1, for instance. I'm not convinced that the wizard is 'far' from them, as a caster though.

All of these classes are more effective than wizards at low level. They might not be as effective in one single situation that one single wizard spell is perfect for, but overall throughout the adventuring day, they add more to the group, kill more foes, take less damage, and overall just get more done.

Perhaps marginally more effective because of things other than casting - like class abilities or having those extra 2 hps for d8 HD instead of d6 at 1st level or wearing a bit of armor - but, as casters, it doesn't look like they're ahead, at all. In fact, at low level, a lot of their casting is going to be eaten up healing.

The main thing that Wizards have going for them are Familiars (and the Sleep spell ). This, of course, assumes that the DM never kills the familiar and forces the wizard to recreate it at 10 GP (of specially acquired components) a pop. And the utility of a familiar is DM dependent.

The utility of everything in 5e is DM dependent. And, yes, the Sleep spell was classically the best 1st level spell, the Wizard would cast it once/day at 1st level and that was his whole claim to fame - if he was even lucky enough to randomly start with that spell. In 3e, he casts it twice, and can re-gain it once with a short rest, and he guaranteed it if he wants it.

Wizards also have some versatility that the other classes do not. But most of this tends not to occur in game since the wizard player does not necessarily have the PC learn or prep the situationally dependent miscellaneous spells a lot (like Comprehend Languages, or Detect Magic, or Unseen Servant). The class has the spell, but the PC often does not.

True of all casters, but less true of prepped full casters (Cleric, Druid, & Wizard), and least true of the wizard while the healing burden is eating up the slots of the other two.

This all goes out the window at level 5. Once Wizards get Fireball, they tend to take a major step forward.

Not going to argue with that. Not that I agree entirely, just that I don't feel like arguing....
OK, maybe I'll quibble a little. By 5th, the rest of the party is getting durable enough that the Cleric, Druid, & Bard won't be blowing so many of their slots and actions to heal dropped allies in combat.


Also: I can't help but notice that the Sorcerer and Warlock didn't bear mentioning?

 

[KarinsDad]

Tasha's Laughter is pretty good too. But, IMX, at low level, if you have Cure Wounds, you cast Cure Wounds, a lot. It's more a burden than an added option. At higher levels, that effect is moderated a bit, as you're not constantly needing to bring PCs back up.

I agree on Tasha's although I have seen a lot of quick saves with it too. Due to the immediate save and the damage clause, it tends to be a one round spell on average.

As for Cure, I tend to disagree. In our group, 5 PCs out of 7 have Cure Wounds (Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Ranger/Wizard), but it is almost never cast in combat. Out of combat, they often take short rests and use up their hit dice (plus song of rest) first.

If the party is so hurt that they have to use up Cure Wounds spells, they tend to hole up for the night anyway.

You are aware that levels 1-4 go /very/ quickly, I assume.

They can go quickly. It depends a lot of whether the DM follows the XP charts, whether there are a lot of combats or a few, etc. In our game, we only get to play once or twice a month (and then typically for 5 hours max), so the PCs are half way to 6th level. It took a long time to get to 5th (since the basic set came out).

Course, this thread is about levels 1 to 4, so...

Druids are pretty awesome, they certainly stay in Tier 1, for instance. I'm not convinced that the wizard is 'far' from them, as a caster though.

Well, we were talking about how effective spell casters were, not how effective spell casters are at casting spells. Looking at just a single facet of a class tends to miss out on things.

Perhaps marginally more effective because of things other than casting - like class abilities or having those extra 2 hps for d8 HD instead of d6 at 1st level or wearing a bit of armor - but, as casters, it doesn't look like they're ahead, at all. In fact, at low level, a lot of their casting is going to be eaten up healing.

The utility of everything in 5e is DM dependent. And, yes, the Sleep spell was classically the best 1st level spell, the Wizard would cast it once/day at 1st level and that was his whole claim to fame - if he was even lucky enough to randomly start with that spell. In 3e, he casts it twice, and can re-gain it once with a short rest, and he guaranteed it if he wants it.

True of all casters, but less true of prepped full casters (Cleric, Druid, & Wizard), and least true of the wizard while the healing burden is eating up the slots of the other two.

Again, assuming this happens. I just don't see the "spells are eaten up with casting heals" at my table. There is some use of spells for that, but with 5 PCs out of 7 being able to heal and the fighter having parry, second wind, and Heavy Armor Master, I just don't see it happening a lot. Our group does fairly well at tactics and PC design which means that there are a lot of high AC PCs that don't get smacked around a lot (the Paladin has AC 22 and can get it to AC 25 once per round).

Not going to argue with that. Not that I agree entirely, just that I don't feel like arguing....
OK, maybe I'll quibble a little. By 5th, the rest of the party is getting durable enough that the Cleric, Druid, & Bard won't be blowing so many of their slots and actions to heal dropped allies in combat.

I think that Wizards are situationally effective until Fireball. Once they get that (and/or Fly), they become a whole lot more useful. Bards get Stinking Cloud or Major Image, Clerics get Spirit Guardians, and Druids get Call Lightning and Sleet Storm. All of these can be useful, but Fireball just has a really large area of effect and can cut in half the duration of an encounter. Potatoes, potaatoes.

Also: I can't help but notice that the Sorcerer and Warlock didn't bear mentioning?

I almost put the Warlock on the list, but I haven't actually seen him in play, so I was unable to. The sorcerer, err. What???????

 

[Tony Vargas]

As for Cure, I tend to disagree. In our group, 5 PCs out of 7 have Cure Wounds (Bard, Cleric, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, Ranger, Ranger/Wizard), but it is almost never cast in combat. Out of combat, they often take short rests and use up their hit dice (plus song of rest) first.

I've never seen a party with that many healers, but OK, experiences do differ...

If the party is so hurt that they have to use up Cure Wounds spells, they tend to hole up for the night anyway.

That's sensible, if you have that kind of time. I'd expect casters to do really well with that kind of pacing, too.

They can go quickly. It depends a lot of whether the DM follows the XP charts, whether there are a lot of combats or a few, etc. In our game, we only get to play once or twice a month (and then typically for 5 hours max), so the PCs are half way to 6th level. It took a long time to get to 5th (since the basic set came out).

Yeah, I'm running Encounters, so short sessions, but every week - and level 1-4 over and over... Level 1, in particular, PCs drop and need spells to get back up all the time.

I think that Wizards are situationally effective until Fireball. Once they get that (and/or Fly), they become a whole lot more useful. Bards get Stinking Cloud or Major Image, Clerics get Spirit Guardians, and Druids get Call Lightning and Sleet Storm. All of these can be useful, but Fireball just has a really large area of effect and can cut in half the duration of an encounter. Potatoes, potaatoes.

I know fireball is a classic with a big area, and they actually increased it's damage in 5e, it still strikes me as an odd benchmark. Sleep has much the same encounter-snuffing effect at 1st level, for instance.

I almost put the Warlock on the list, but I haven't actually seen him in play, so I was unable to. The sorcerer, err. What???????

I have, I don't think it'd've made a difference to the conversation if you had seen it in play.

 

[Jaron Mortimer]

I have, I don't think it'd've made a difference to the conversation if you had seen it in play.

Hey now, don't go putting my favorite class on blast!

Granted...they can be REAL one trick ponies before they get that third spell slot, but they're steady damage dealers at all levels. I've played several, and I almost never feel like I'm not making a significant difference in the outcome of a fight.

Also, one cannot ignore the possibility of tossing out 9d6 damage at 3rd level. (Scorching ray +Hex). Its just kinda beautiful to utterly annihilate something at that level, take a nap, then do it again.

 

[The Wizard Dolomite]

It depends on how much power the DM allows for Minor Illusion. From a careful reading of it, Silent Image, and Major Image, Minor Illusion is limited to creating a pile of gold, a boot, some sound or voices, or any other non-mobile visual illusion.

A moving stream of water (other visible phenomena)? No, that's Silent or Major Image.
A moving creature? No, that's Silent or Major Image.

If the DM allows for illusions that move (flames of a campfire flickering as opposed to just being there) as opposed to stationary objects, then it can indeed become fairly useful.

It doesn't have to be flames though. An unmoving spike pit can be just as effective if you can position it to trap someone in a corner or something. In last nights encounter someone fell prone and was missed on the attack and I kept him prone by making the illusion that he was trapped in a box with spike protruding to the point of almost touching his flesh, and the spikes were rolled in razor wire so that he would want to make every effort not to touch them or move. I've also trapped people in corners with small spiked pits, had horrifying images waiting for those who have opened doors, several things. Granted, it doesnt hold or fool people for a particularly long time, but it does have a good effect on the battle if you can stay creative with it. To me its a much more useful cantrip then firebolt.

 

[KarinsDad]

It doesn't have to be flames though. An unmoving spike pit can be just as effective if you can position it to trap someone in a corner or something. In last nights encounter someone fell prone and was missed on the attack and I kept him prone by making the illusion that he was trapped in a box with spike protruding to the point of almost touching his flesh, and the spikes were rolled in razor wire so that he would want to make every effort not to touch them or move.

Again, this is totally DM dependent. If you read the spell, if he just accidentally touches the illusion, his hand / arm / whatever goes through it and he automatically knows that it is an illusion.

Have you ever tried to not move at all? It's not necessarily easy to do. It would be reasonable for a DM to roll to see if this actually stops an NPC, or minimally might give him an Investigation check (if the NPC is not doing anything else). A monster might not even care and just try to (easily) break out.

So, the wizards uses up an action and the monster might just try to break out and does so.

It's all DM dependent as to how well this actually works. A given DM might just automatically keep the NPC trapped for a few rounds. Another DM might make a check to see if the NPC's arm accidentally goes through the illusion.

Just because the player wants a given thing to happen doesn't necessarily mean it will, and just because your DM might be a bit lenient with the cantrip does not mean that all DMs will. I'm not quite sure why an NPC wouldn't just try to grab the bottom of the box and try to lift it off himself for example. He wouldn't have to touch the spike or the razor wire to accomplish that and it doesn't actually take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

If an NPC tried to trap my prone PC this way, this is the first thing I would ask the DM about. Can I just lift the box?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Are we still talking about legendary resistance in this thread? I'll say this anyway: what if legendary resistance cost your reaction? It would still prevent save-or-lose for dragons and such, but would come with a real cost and limitation that rewarded you for combined arms tactics, instead of everybody just hammering away with DPR exclusively. (Yes I know, there are spells that bypass LR. Not what I'm talking about.)

I think I like this better than converting LR to old-style MR.

And of course, some monsters like Tiamat get multiple reactions per turn.

 

[The Wizard Dolomite]

Again, this is totally DM dependent. If you read the spell, if he just accidentally touches the illusion, his hand / arm / whatever goes through it and he automatically knows that it is an illusion.

Have you ever tried to not move at all? It's not necessarily easy to do. It would be reasonable for a DM to roll to see if this actually stops an NPC, or minimally might give him an Investigation check (if the NPC is not doing anything else). A monster might not even care and just try to (easily) break out.

So, the wizards uses up an action and the monster might just try to break out and does so.

It's all DM dependent as to how well this actually works. A given DM might just automatically keep the NPC trapped for a few rounds. Another DM might make a check to see if the NPC's arm accidentally goes through the illusion.

Just because the player wants a given thing to happen doesn't necessarily mean it will, and just because your DM might be a bit lenient with the cantrip does not mean that all DMs will. I'm not quite sure why an NPC wouldn't just try to grab the bottom of the box and try to lift it off himself for example. He wouldn't have to touch the spike or the razor wire to accomplish that and it doesn't actually take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

If an NPC tried to trap my prone PC this way, this is the first thing I would ask the DM about. Can I just lift the box?

How do you get enough leverage to move and try and lift something off you by its edges when you are face down and have spikes petruding from every side but the ground side? Your also in a box with very little light, stuck looking down more or less, and I should also have pointed out the box he was incased in appeared to be made of the same stone the dungeon was made out of, stone is pretty heavy. He essencially couldnt move a hare without in his mind being sliced and poked. Yes, a dm could say he accidentally bumps into it and reveals it, but I wouldnt say the dm allowing it would be lenient, I would say the dm disallowing it would be strict. I get that we do suck at damage, I wont discount that. Yes, I only held a guy in a box for a few rounds, whereas the fighter would have killed that guy, then moved forward and killed another guy in that 1 round at those lower levels. But the trade off is that fighter simply gets to swing a sword and kill a guy, whereas I get to trap people in spiked boxes. No one is amazed at the fighters stabidy stab kills, they are entertained and enjoy the things I do.

Yes if you look at dnd like pure combat then the wizard is gimpy at low levels. But think of gandalf, he is guiding the party with his wisdom, he fights mostly with a sword and is gimpy compared to legolas and araborn who are taking down all the enemies, but then a balrog of morgoth shows up, and gandalfs power shines as he takes it by himself. This is how i approach my wizard, and I make it a point to always think things through and offer up inventive or wise suggestions to my party, and the people I play with are all pretty new, and I tell no one what spells I took, so the few occasions when I deem a spell slot worth to be expended, my group are always on edge to see what sort of trick im going to conjure up next. I believe this is the 5e approach to wizards, and its ment for people who have that sort of play style. And the sorc and warlock like other people have said, are ment for those who wish to do more spell damage.

Then again, perhaps I am wrong. I have only played one other editions, 4e and we had no wizard in the party so I have no previous experence with him. The only thing I can say for certain is, without having ever played or seen a previous wizard in DND, I am very much enjoying my class (Though i would like to have a couple more spell slots or an int mod on firebolt I wont lie), and I am able to affect my battlefield in ways other then pure damage that never leaves me feeling like I am not pulling my weight.

 

[Malovaan]

How do you get enough leverage to move and try and lift something off you by its edges when you are face down and have spikes petruding from every side but the ground side? Your also in a box with very little light, stuck looking down more or less, and I should also have pointed out the box he was incased in appeared to be made of the same stone the dungeon was made out of, stone is pretty heavy. He essencially couldnt move a hare without in his mind being sliced and poked. Yes, a dm could say he accidentally bumps into it and reveals it, but I wouldnt say the dm allowing it would be lenient, I would say the dm disallowing it would be strict. I get that we do suck at damage, I wont discount that. Yes, I only held a guy in a box for a few rounds, whereas the fighter would have killed that guy, then moved forward and killed another guy in that 1 round at those lower levels. But the trade off is that fighter simply gets to swing a sword and kill a guy, whereas I get to trap people in spiked boxes. No one is amazed at the fighters stabidy stab kills, they are entertained and enjoy the things I do.

I would expect that the DM gives the NPC an investigation check on his round to see if he decides to feel around inside the box or something and whether he reveals that its an illusion. I agree that a DM just totally disallowing it by saying the NPC touches it or somesuch would be incredibly strict. On the other hand though, I do think that a DM does need to be a bit careful in what he allows, making sure that this cantrip spell doesn't take the place of higher level illusion spells.

I'm definitely in the camp of "DMs should say YES", but it does need to be tempered a bit so that they aren't allowing things that are way off what spell descriptions imply. Personally I'm really hoping my L3 wizard gets a chance at using his newly taken Phantasmal Force in our session today, but I'm not sure how open to DM interpretation that one is going to end up being!

As to the rest of this thread, I'm not convinced that wizards are weak at low levels, I haven't seen it really. As for the not being useful until fireball at level 5... what about the damage output of scorching ray at L3? That seems a massive bonus to our party, even if its restricted to just one or two castings a day. Couple that with all the useful things the wizard can potentially do to alter the odds of an encounter in our favour - web, sleep, hold person, phantasmal force, minor illusion, colour spray, grease, etc, etc - then I reckon they aren't in a bad place at all. Plus you can't complain at being able to chuck a mote of fire at-will every round either