D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[KarinsDad]

I GMed Rolemaster on a very regular basis from 1990 to 2008, so I know the system pretty well.

There is an active playtest of a revised version currently underway on the ICE site - though personally, if someone wanted to play a RM-style game I would recommend HARP these days.

I disliked HARP with a passion. It was a watered down version of RM and had no breadth. Limited flavor. I really would like to get back to RM, but the amount of work involved is just so great while work/life interferes. Once I retire, I might go back to it.

 

[Celtavian]

Snark aside, how in the WORLD do you think that spell casters are number 1 in 5E?

I don't know of anyone who thinks this. Our Cleric rarely casts spells and she is one of the least effective meleers in our group (although the Bard is worse). From my experience, ranger archer types generally do the most damage and are the safest far in the back, melee types do a lot of damage and are the most durable, and spell casters show up once every four or five rounds to do a non-cantrip. It might be effective, it might not.

And Wizards are far from the most effective spell casters in 5E.

Wizards are the most effective and powerful spell casters in 5E. You're wrong there. Spell diversity is king as you level up. Being able to change your spell list on a daily basis is an amazing advantage as well as being able to cast ritual spells out of a book. A prepared wizard can still beat every other class in the game in combat. Not the 100% surety of 3E, but a very high percentage of the time. If you're not more effective as a wizard, you're not trying very hard. I've played a wizard to level 16 with a cleric and lore bard in the group, I was hands down the most effective caster in the group. The party would not have survived without me.

Clerics are strange. I'm not sure what to think of them yet. They have limited spells, but some are extremely powerful like bless and spirit guardians. They don't do much damage at all. They seem to add a little bit of a bunch of things that makes a group stronger, the most important being healing and bless. It's seems like the old cleric, but without the same high end power potential.

 

[KarinsDad]

I disagree. I felt weak at first until I got creative. I have affected the battlefield as much or more then anyone in the party by simply using my minor illusion cantrip.

It depends on how much power the DM allows for Minor Illusion. From a careful reading of it, Silent Image, and Major Image, Minor Illusion is limited to creating a pile of gold, a boot, some sound or voices, or any other non-mobile visual illusion.

A moving stream of water (other visible phenomena)? No, that's Silent or Major Image.
A moving creature? No, that's Silent or Major Image.

If the DM allows for illusions that move (flames of a campfire flickering as opposed to just being there) as opposed to stationary objects, then it can indeed become fairly useful.

 

[KarinsDad]

Wizards are the most effective and powerful spell casters in 5E. You're wrong there.

Not at low level as per this thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

Clerics are strange. I'm not sure what to think of them yet. They have limited spells, but some are extremely powerful like bless and spirit guardians. They don't do much damage at all. They seem to add a little bit of a bunch of things that makes a group stronger, the most important being healing and bless. It's seems like the old cleric, but without the same high end power potential.

Clerics are strange. I sat down with the player of our Cleric and said "These are your strengths. You should play to them.". The player had a few spells that she relied on (Bless being one of them, but Bless is overrated for a melee Cleric). In fact, Bless is often wasted in any non-hard / non-deadly encounter. By the time a melee Cleric casts Bless on a Medium or easier encounter, the encounter is mostly mopped up. The Cleric should just wade in and use that action to try to hit something.

She also used Spiritual Weapon a lot and due to low movement and other factors, it hardly affects a combat at all (although there are a few types of encounters where it can shine). Our experience has just been amazing meh with it (obviously, YMMV).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Snark aside, how in the WORLD do you think that spell casters are number 1 in 5E?

It's an easy conclusion to draw (setting aside whether it's a valid conclusion). Say you start with the supposition that 4e was balanced - something even people who hated it tend to agree on, even that it was somehow too balanced. Then look at what happened to casters. They got more spells to choose from, the ability to revise those choices daily and more and more powerful spells/day. Non-casters, OTOH, lost all their daily abilities, and went from hundreds of abilities down to a handful.

It's hard not to conclude, from that line of reasoning, that casters ended up on top.

What it ignores is multiple attacks. Multiple attacks were seen as problematic in modern D&D design - 3.5 used declining-BAB iterative, movement-incompatible full attacks to reign them in, and 4e was even more restrictive in who got multiple attacks, how they worked, and how often they could be used. In 5e, multiple attacks deliver the highest DPR (because, well, they really are problematic), so non- and half-casters with them get to shine in that one area. Since it's the most easily quantified and analyzed sort of 'power,' it's thus equally easy to conclude (again, setting aside whether it's a valid conclusion) that classes with multiple attacks are on top. If you ignore everything else as too difficult to use in making comparisons.

And Wizards are far from the most effective spell casters in 5E.

I'd be curious which spellcasters you think are far more effective than wizards?

 

[Celtavian]

Not at low level as per this thread.

I had fun and was effective at low level. Sure, a cleric is probably more effective in the low level range for healing and bless alone.

 

[Celtavian]

Clerics are strange. I sat down with the player of our Cleric and said "These are your strengths. You should play to them.". The player had a few spells that she relied on (Bless being one of them, but Bless is overrated for a melee Cleric). In fact, Bless is often wasted in any non-hard / non-deadly encounter. By the time a melee Cleric casts Bless on a Medium or easier encounter, the encounter is mostly mopped up. The Cleric should just wade in and use that action to try to hit something.

She also used Spiritual Weapon a lot and due to low movement and other factors, it hardly affects a combat at all (although there are a few types of encounters where it can shine). Our experience has just been amazing meh with it (obviously, YMMV).

Our experiences are similar. I wade in and do some damage with my weapon or sacred flame in easier fights saving bless for more difficult fights. Clerics definitely don't do much damage at all, probably lowest in the game save for perhaps bards. Bards and clerics seem to be built for players that want to buff and heal.

I'm very disappointed at the lack of options for clerics. Every cleric using sacred flame was straight up lazy design by the developers. Cleric seems like the class they put the least amount of work and thought developing.

 

[keterys]

Clerics and Druids are generally far more effective at low level than a wizard. The "at low level" caveat is important there, mind you.

Maybe that was this edition's answer to CoDzilla's root cause: we want the healers to be tempting and awesome so that people actually play them, but once they're hooked they can fall behind again.

 

[Celtavian]

Clerics and Druids are generally far more effective at low level than a wizard. The "at low level" caveat is important there, mind you.

Maybe that was this edition's answer to CoDzilla's root cause: we want the healers to be tempting and awesome so that people actually play them, but once they're hooked they can fall behind again.

I don't mind the lack of damage. It's the lack of variety that is disturbing. I hope they correct the variety problem with a cool cleric and druid book.

Harm is a pretty awesome single target damage spell. Spirit guardians is vicious, especially when a cleric stands behind a wall of martials.