D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[KarinsDad]

I noticed there are a few monsters like this in the MM that go both ways. For example, did you look at the Chasme Demon? Holy mother of...The thing does 64 points of damage a hit with no save. Can you imagine a group of chasme attacking a party? It would make a group of vrocks or higher level demons look like chid's play. Yet they are CR 6. How many 6th level PCs can take a 64 point hit?

Actually, quite a few. The chasme only does 40 points of damage on average. Most 6th level wizards have 32 or 38 hit points. Most 6th level fighters have 52 or 58. It's the 78 points of damage if it criticals that really matters because that will kill many mid to low hit point PCs with a single hit. The hit point maximum reduction probably won't matter that much in a combat (although it might affect future encounters that day), nor will the Drone ability.

But a group of chasme is much higher than a CR 6 encounter and I wouldn't expect a group of 6th level PCs to fight them. One chasme is considered Easy by the CR guidelines for a party of 4 6th level PCs, two chasmes are considered deadly.

Then you have the Demilich. Not sure what they missed on this creature. A level 17 wizard with power word kill gets to the Demilich and kills it. Only way the Demilich lives is to encase the wizard in an antimagic field and keep it on him until everyone else goes or get lucky with the howl ability. If the wizard gets to go, the demilich dies immediately.

I consider this to be a flaw of Power Word Kill, not the Demilich. PWK is an enchantment spell without a save. Although the 3E version of it also did not have a save, it did have spell resistance. In a game where creatures get to save every single round vs. spells, they kind of missed the boat on this one.

Even with the gnoll encounter, if that had been kobolds or hobgoblins half as many would have been too much. The kobolds would have died easier, but all those attacks with advantage even with missile weapons would have done some damage. Hobgoblins are nasty in groups.

It's an odd game. I don't feel like the gnoll encounter was really a CR 8 given their special abilities aren't as good as other special abilities. Even orcs are somewhat scarier because you can't outrun them and their swingy damage can really hurt you. One orc hit is like a gnoll crit. An orc crit is like a hit from four gnolls. It's bad news.

I think this is a relic of the CR mechanic, lack of granularity. For example, wolves are at the very top of the CR 1/4 food chain (I'd usually prefer to fight a zombie than a wolf). Not quite as powerful as most CR 1/2 creatures, but definitely one of the strongest of the CR 1/4 ones.


It's also why I started this thread. My wizard felt like the gnoll, not the orc.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's an odd game. I don't feel like the gnoll encounter was really a CR 8 given their special abilities aren't as good as other special abilities. Even orcs are somewhat scarier because you can't outrun them and their swingy damage can really hurt you. One orc hit is like a gnoll crit. An orc crit is like a hit from four gnolls. It's bad news.

But it's odd in familiar ways. Classic D&D didn't even have anything quite like CR. It sometimes equated HD & levels, a monster might be in a chart of 'Level 3' encounters or in a Monster Summoning IV table, but none of those really meant the monster had a level equivalent to a PC level. There were no encounter-building guidelines, it was an art.

While 5e does present a 3.x-style CR and some fairly complex encounter-building guidelines, I think encounter design is back to feeling like more of an art. You may not always be able to trust the numbers, but you can trust your vision of the world/story (depending on your 'agenda') and your experience running past editions of the game.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But it's odd in familiar ways. Classic D&D didn't even have anything quite like CR. It sometimes equated HD & levels, a monster might be in a chart of 'Level 3' encounters or in a Monster Summoning IV table, but none of those really meant the monster had a level equivalent to a PC level. There were no encounter-building guidelines, it was an art.

While 5e does present a 3.x-style CR and some fairly complex encounter-building guidelines, I think encounter design is back to feeling like more of an art. You may not always be able to trust the numbers, but you can trust your vision of the world/story (depending on your 'agenda') and your experience running past editions of the game.

Brief tangent: Back in my AD&D (very munchkin) days, we would hunt down mekillots for XP because they have high HD (and thus high XP) and an incredibly weak attack. 5E still has monsters like that, as well as the converse: incredibly dangerous monsters that grant you no XP worth mentioning due to low CR. 20 hobgoblins gives you the only 70% of the same XP as a Blue Slaad, but I know which of the two I'd rather fight, and it's not the Slaad. Drow in the Underdark are even worse than hobgoblins due to darkvision, stealth and poison crossbows.

CR and threat level don't correlate well. Therefore, I try to give my players a mix of tasty treats (big dumb straightforward brutes that you can kill, if you have the right tools, and feel powerful/gain XP) and veggies (experienced foes that use terrain/tactics to punch out of their weight class; often gives little XP but may give roleplaying opportunities like intel or even alliance-forming). I like that better than the approach of playing every random myconid or aurumvorax like a veteran githyanki battlemaster. Having a high CR doesn't mean you've been in a lot of fights, or spent a lot of time thinking about fighting. Of course, it also doesn't mean you haven't, so players beware...

 

[Celtavian]

Actually, quite a few. The chasme only does 40 points of damage on average. Most 6th level wizards have 32 or 38 hit points. Most 6th level fighters have 52 or 58. It's the 78 points of damage if it criticals that really matters because that will kill many mid to low hit point PCs with a single hit. The hit point maximum reduction probably won't matter that much in a combat (although it might affect future encounters that day), nor will the Drone ability.

The hit point reduction matters. It happens immediately. If you have 60 hit points, you suddenly have 40 and just took 40. It's harsh. Have you fought hit point reduction creatures? Nasty ability. It's like doing double damage. The really sick part is the no save. Most of the time hit point reduction gives you a save. But the Chasme doesn't.

Let's say you have a 120 hit points. Chasme hits. You have 100 hit points and just took 40 damage. You now have 60 hit points. It hits you again. You have 80 max hit points and 20 hit points left. Nasty, nasty ability. One more hit and you're done, each hit after that kills you even if you get healed.

I'll consider this to be a flaw of Power Word Kill, not the Demilich. PWK is an enchantment spell without a save. Although the 3E version of it also did not have a save, it did have spell resistance. In a game where creatures get to save every single round vs. spells, they kind of missed the boat on this one.

It is a 9th level spell. I wish they had given the Demilich immunity to it. Just too easy without it.

I think this is a relic of the CR mechanic, lack of granularity. For example, wolves are at the very top of the CR 1/4 food chain (I'd usually prefer to fight a zombie than a wolf). Not quite as powerful as most CR 1/2 creatures, but definitely one of the strongest of the CR 1/4 ones.

I think they underestimated abilities like Pack Tactics and Martial Advantage.

It's also why I started this thread. My wizard felt like the gnoll, not the orc.

The wizard can do some nifty stuff. I imagine we could have used a silent image to seal the gnolls off and separate them had we thought more about it. Let the leader and his sons run past, then make it seem like we cast a wall up or a creature. The wizard still seems to play like a 4E controller in my opinion, especially at low level with spells like silent image, thunderwave, flaming sphere, and web. Those tools help control the battlefield.

 

[KarinsDad]

The hit point reduction matters. It happens immediately. If you have 60 hit points, you suddenly have 40 and just took 40. It's harsh. Have you fought hit point reduction creatures? Nasty ability. It's like doing double damage. The really sick part is the no save. Most of the time hit point reduction gives you a save. But the Chasme doesn't.

Let's say you have a 120 hit points. Chasme hits. You have 100 hit points and just took 40 damage. You now have 60 hit points. It hits you again. You have 80 max hit points and 20 hit points left. Nasty, nasty ability. One more hit and you're done, each hit after that kills you even if you get healed.

Do you have a rules quote for that? Maybe from the MM? I didn't know that it worked that way.

It is a 9th level spell. I wish they had given the Demilich immunity to it. Just too easy without it.

It doesn't matter if it is a 9th level spell. Save or suck, quite frankly, sucks. No save just die goes way beyond suck. This is way too abusable. The 200 hit point monster just took 110 points of damage, now it dies.

The hit points of the Lich (which is immune or resistant to most damage) is fine. It's the terribly written PWK spell that does not balance with the rest of the game system.


This is not too dissimilar to the original rules for Battlerager Fighters in 4E that totally did not take into account minions. When creating rules, the designers have to take into account all of the other rules. The other rules of 5E magic is that because magic resistance no longer exists and in order to make spell casters less powerful, they added in saves every round. For PWK, they did the opposite. They got rid of magic resistance and kept the "no save" part of it and made it stronger, instead of weaker.

I think they underestimated abilities like Pack Tactics and Martial Advantage.

Agreed.

The wizard can do some nifty stuff. I imagine we could have used a silent image to seal the gnolls off and separate them had we thought more about it. Let the leader and his sons run past, then make it seem like we cast a wall up or a creature. The wizard still seems to play like a 4E controller in my opinion, especially at low level with spells like silent image, thunderwave, flaming sphere, and web. Those tools help control the battlefield.

True, but this is totally DM dependent. I would think that most gnolls running down a corridor would at least try to touch a magically appearing wall or creature with their spears. Maybe a wall of fire might be more unlikely to be touched, but then again, it doesn't give off heat (IIRC). Maybe an illusion of something a bit more scarey (like a wall of weird moving colors might seem like something that someone is unwilling to touch).

DMs who always say yes might be amiable to a simple illusion holding off gnolls without the gnolls trying anything. A DM who does not, might not.

 

[chriton227]

It is a 9th level spell. I wish they had given the Demilich immunity to it. Just too easy without it.

I think for my game I'm going to house rule Power Word Kill to add the same "This spell has no effect on undead or constructs" clause that exists on Power Word Heal.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think for my game I'm going to house rule Power Word Kill to add the same "This spell has no effect on undead or constructs" clause that exists on Power Word Heal.

But if you do that, then the guy who foolishly took PWK doesn't get to benefit from the one scenario where his choice actually pays off.

 

[famousringo]

I think for my game I'm going to house rule Power Word Kill to add the same "This spell has no effect on undead or constructs" clause that exists on Power Word Heal.

Perhaps the simpler solution is to just give your demilich Counterspell. I know if I were a demilich, I'd keep myself ready for a a good ol' fashioned wizard duel at a moment's notice.

Also gives the player a fighting chance if the demilich has used his 9th level slot, or forces the demilich to use it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Perhaps the simpler solution is to just give your demilich Counterspell. I know if I were a demilich, I'd keep myself ready for a a good ol' fashioned wizard duel at a moment's notice.

Also gives the player a fighting chance if the demilich has used his 9th level slot, or forces the demilich to use it.

IIRC Demiliches don't have any spellcasting ability, but I don't care--I'm stealing this idea anyway.

 

[KarinsDad]

But if you do that, then the guy who foolishly took PWK doesn't get to benefit from the one scenario where his choice actually pays off.

I just think that giving it a saving throw is the simplest solution. It might just work. It might not. Where does it state that 9th level spells should always work? If 1st level Charm Person should have a chance to fail against low level foes, then auto-kill 9th level PWK should definitely have a chance to fail (other than the NPC having 100 or more hit points) against high level foes. Granted, some high level foes have defenses against failed saving throws, but wizards should not be able to one shot extremely powerful foes anyway.