"low" magic campaign using D&D rules

[crazy_monkey1956]

There are quite a few ways that suggestions taken above can become "flavor" only and thus not change the rules in the slightest.

For example, the spellcasters as prestige classes suggestion is a good one, but, it can be altered slightly. The PC spellcasters, while still using the normal rules for their character classes, can be the special ones in some way. The PC wizard may be the only apprentice to the world's (or region's or country's or whatever's) only archmage. The PC cleric may be the messiah of his religion, simply because he's the only cleric and not an adept or an expert.

The Core only suggestion above is also, in my opinion, the way to go for a low-magic feel. A lot of the other splat-books add elements that increase the high-magic feel.

NPC reactions and demographics are also key. If I were to run a campaign like this, I'd just take the PC classes out of the demographics tables in the DMG. Another "fix" that doesn't change the rules at all is to make every city, town and village "Isolated" in terms of racial mix (and maybe mix up the races a bit to reflect your campaign's races).

Basically, the main way I would handle this to make the PCs unique, even the non-spellcasters. The rank and file members (experts) of the thieves guild admire or envy the PC rogue because he's a rogue and they're not. The captain of the guard knew the PC fighter was special when he bested all the warriors in practice after practice.

Same thing can apply to NPC antangonists as well. That orc barbarian leading the orc tribe is the only barbarian in the tribe and feared and respected by the tribe and the tribe's enemies because of it. The hobgoblin fighter is the general of the hobgoblin armies because everyone around him is just a lowly warrior. The cleric of the evil cult is an anti-messiah because he's a cleric.

So, I don't think rules changing is necessary, per se. It's all in the presentation.

 

[Imp]

Eh, I think binders are actually more low-magic-feeling than the core arcane casters. But in my lowish-magic-world I also restrict caster classes and x-out the spellcasting feats.

It is probably a good idea to take the quick-and-dirty spell-rarity system a bit further and not let players freely choose any spells outside of core.

I'm refraining from doing a core dump of all my low-magic rule changes (short version: give the PCs some sugar in other areas to offset the castor oil) because I still don't see that the poster wants much more than atmospherics. I would make what permanent magic items there are different from the book and dynamic in their effects; and give out very very few of the permanent items. You could, in lieu of +1 weapons, emphasize potions of magic weapon or greater magic weapon, for example. Actual permanent magic swords can be much rarer then.

Another flavor thing that I do. Consider making magic hard to detect. Whenever possible make their sensory effects nonexistent. No glowing, no "you feel stronger/ more competent/ the luck of the gods/ like you can jump a dozen yards." I go as far as making magic missiles invisible. You can compound this by either removing detect magic or tying it to a (difficult) spellcraft check. So you can have the odd low-level NPC caster show up, but who's to know if their "bless" spell really works? What are they going to do, statistical analysis?

 

[jdrakeh]

Ok, I need some advice on crafting a "Low" magic campaign with D&D rules as is.

Here is my goal:
* Keep the same D&D magic level (magic items, spells) for players and monsters
* do not alter the class progression or rules
* do not make my content weaker or incompatible with official D&D content of the same level
* make magic items more special and worth hanging onto
* make magic items and spells special and mysterious again.
* do not have magic items or spells something that players can walk into a town and buy.
* do not have commoners with magic items or spells being used as technology or for comfort

I am looking to get the feeling of magic being wondrous and special back into standard D&D, where the common folk are uneasy about it and do not understand it, but the movers and shakers (players included) can still do what they normally do in a 3.5 D&D campaign.

What should I do to make this happen with the least impact on the D&D rules as they are written?

Note, that by low magic I really mean rare (but still powerful).

I'm doing something like this in Blood of Kings, though I did tweak the generic Spellcaster class from UA a bit to represent cultural magics (and still need to tweak it a bit more this weekend). Otherwise, I think that some of my solutions may work for you.

 

[Jhaelen]

Despite what you see as flaws, it was a blast to play for all involved.

How does that change the fact that it's bad game design?
I've had lots of fun with several game systems although they were badly designed. It's mainly a blast because of the guys & gals you're playing with - game mechanics are clearly not the most important thing here.

I've also been playing Runequest for years and I didn't mind rolling for my previous occupation which has a huge effect on a character's power. But there are players who do mind and rightly so. There are players who'd regularly let their characters 'commit suicide' if he didn't come up to their expectations. Definitely a 'Yay!' for point-buy character creation from my side.

I've also been playing using a decidedly different style in Call of Cthulhu:
Players were assigned predesigned characters that were customized for a certain adventure. So everyone was playing a different role in each adventure and noone knew beforehand whom he was going to represent. That can also be fun, but it's not an approach I'd recommend for D&D.

 

[Professor Phobos]

How does that change the fact that it's bad game design?

Because if the game is facilitating an enjoyable experience...it's not badly designed?

Seriously, sometimes random chargen and getting stuck with a one-legged former acrobat with gout is fun.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I was wondering how long it would take for this thread to get derailed.

Its hardly derailed. I'm pointing out something I see people wanting low magic worlds overlook.

Think about a 5th level wizard in our world. They can do stuff no one else can do. Our world is pretty ill equipped to counter the invisible guy just walking off with stuff every day. Disguise self. Charm Person. Sleep.

Now imagine that in a world with even lower tech. Where no one has phones, internet, interpol etc to track or warn about repeat offenders. Even moreso than in a standard campaign, a PC caster in a low magic game IS a superhero. The world isnt prepared to deal with him, since magic often requires magical means to counter.

And it DOES hose the fighter/noncasters in comparison. Normally they can gain some utility style magic effects through items (cape of the montebank for example). While the wizard has more, the fighter has at least some. Take those away, and now the wizard has infinitely more, since the fighter has zero. You are playing a normal guy while your pal zooms around shooting fire out of his arse.

And thats ignoring the fact that the fighter does need magic weapons, armor and stat boosters to face CR appropriate monsters. He needs gear to reliably hit, and AC to prevent monsters from power attacking him into paste.

If you're taking issue with my statement that magic items were never special, I stand by that. No one I know cheered when they got a spear +1 in 1st edition. You just erased the x2 and wrote x3 on the back of your sheet, and it sat in a bag of holding with tons of other junk you never used. Magic items werent rare, and getting an extra 5% to hit and a +1 to damage never made anyone I've gamed with do backflips of joy. I think people are misremembering that magic items are special, because they want it to be so. Sure, Gygax and company TOLD us they were rare, but they were hippocrates by their own rules. Anyone who generated treasure for a mid level adventure (using the treasure tables they wrote), or ran something they wrote, must have noticed the gobs of magic items sitting in owlbear nests and under bedpans.

 

[Celebrim]

Its hardly derailed. I'm pointing out something I see people wanting low magic worlds overlook.

That's where I tend to take issue with the statement. The problem I have is that while to a certain extent you are correct about some of the problems that have to be considered, every single time someone starts a thread on low magic a certain crowd of people show up arguing that this is 'badwrongfun'. And while that might not be your intention, you are making the same arguments that other people with this intention use as cover for derailing the thread.

There have been alot of people making statements along these lines, but they tended to make them as positive statements - "These are the sort of things you can do to avoid potential pitfalls." Statements like, "If you reduce PC equipment you may have to adjust some encounters.", are at this point not very helpful. Not only are they straight forward obvious, but historically people who make this criticism aren't normally doing so out of a love and appreciation for low magic campaigning and a desire to be helpful. If you are, I think you should try to give more positive contributions rather than appearing to harangue everyone that is.

I think people are misremembering that magic items are special, because they want it to be so.

And I think that this is an example of why I don't trust that you are trying to make a positive contribution to this thread.

Anyone who generated treasure for a mid level adventure (using the treasure tables they wrote), or ran something they wrote, must have noticed the gobs of magic items sitting in owlbear nests and under bedpans.

And this false factoid is trotted out every time some one wants to claim that low magic games are 'badwrongfun'. I've done the math before and posted it here on just about every monster in the 1st edition monster manual, and this assertion is simply false.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

That's where I tend to take issue with the statement. The problem I have is that while to a certain extent you are correct about some of the problems that have to be considered, every single time someone starts a thread on low magic a certain crowd of people show up arguing that this is 'badwrongfun'. And while that might not be your intention, you are making the same arguments that other people with this intention use as cover for derailing the thread.

Its not badwrongfun. Its usually unbalanced compared to the environment and rest of the party, and people tend to overlook that issue.

I've done the math before and posted it here on just about every monster in the 1st edition monster manual, and this assertion is simply false.

Really? Because if you want I can dig up a bunch of 1st edition modules with tons of mooks running around with +1 gear. Magic items have never been rare. Getting them was the basic premise of D&D from the early days. You know, half of the "kill things, take stuff equation". And lets not pretend early dungeon crawls were anything else (or that its not great fun). In depth roleplaying evolved out of that, and has been emphasized more throughout the editions.

You seem to be wanting to pick a fight, so I'm done replying to you.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Really? Because if you want I can dig up a bunch of 1st edition modules with tons of mooks running around with +1 gear.

Celebrim was referring to the treasure tables from the DMG -- Treasure Type A, B, C, etc. Not the treasure from published modules.

It is my sense that, according to these tables, most monsters would have considerably fewer magic items (and often considerably less useful magic items) than were present in modules. For example, dragons in the Basic Set were Treasure Type H, the most generous treasure type, but even so were more likely than not to have NO magic items IIRC.

 

[el-remmen]

Its not badwrongfun. Its usually unbalanced compared to the environment and rest of the party, and people tend to overlook that issue. Get your panties out of a bunch.

[SNIP]

You seem to be wanting to pick a fight, so I'm done replying to you.

Telling folks their panties are in a bunch seems like a decent way to starting or maintaining a fight, too.

Let's remember that it is most productive to handle the issue at hand and offer suggestions to the OP's original request.

The potential pitfalls of "low-magic" D&D have been made abundantly clear in this thread by now.

Let's stay on track and stop the snipinng.

Thanks. [/MOD]