Low Magic Campaigns?

[S'mon]

An interesting observation, and not one that I'd thought much about before.

Thanks!

And of course gift-giving (pre 3e) was what high level PCs routinely did with their excess magic items, awarding them to loyal NPC followers; just as your NPC Baron or Elf Lord can do with lower level PCs/hobbits. This gift giving naturally creates feudal webs of allegiance, just as gives of title, land, arms & armour did in real Dark Ages & Medieval Europe; so you end up with a far more plausible millieu in which the PCs are a natural part, not the impossible-to-explain-so-let's-handwave approach advocated by that (IMO) terrible DMG 2 advice upthread.

 

[Raven Crowking]

"What it's worth in the metagame" ? I'm not even sure what that means, but if I had to guess I would think that would be a base price and yet that's apparently not the case.

Try this then: The PCs are 12th level, and the Captain of the Guards wants the PC wizard to make him a +1 sword. What does the PC wizard charge for it?

 

[el-remmen]

The majority of magical items gained by the PCs in my "Out of the Frying Pan" campaign were gained as gifts (at one point as gifts from their future selves).

I have never played with an economy of magical items (and don't plan to). Every magic item beyond a scroll has the potential to be a unique item to some degree or another - usually by means of some small drawback to go along with its ability.

Ring of Sustenance? This became Lacan's Demise
Belt of Strength? This became Frojack's Belt
Scimitar +1? This became The Southern Razor

Note how they both have some aspect of a drawback.

Now not all magical items have such a drawback - but making them that way requires additional "power components" and coin - making "perfect" magical items that much rarer.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As I said before, if you want to look in detail at one mans take on economics in a medieval fantasy rpg, check out the Merchantyle article here http://home.comcast.net/~harnmil1/downloads.htm

Well done, Sir. Much better presentation than my own.

Oh, and Gizmo, you’re right, there has to be an accepted base price. Selling something for less than it cost for materials and manufacture is only an option if you’re starving, mad, or want to go out of business. What we call consumer protection legislation dates back, at least, to the Assize of Bread and Ale, which set the price of ale and the weight for a farthing loaf of bread.

How do you determine the cost of materials and manufacture? Base price is always relative.

 

[gizmo33]

Try this then: The PCs are 12th level, and the Captain of the Guards wants the PC wizard to make him a +1 sword. What does the PC wizard charge for it?

Can you example me a transaction that isn't based on a single buyer or seller (or group that acts as the same)?

I have the same answer for both of these questions, one AFAICT is just a specific example of the other.

Q: What does the PC wizard charge for it?
A: What he charges for it, isn't what he gets for it. Let's say he charges 1 million gp for it. In my campaign, the captain walks away laughing (or backs away in fear, depending on the level).

Let's say the wizard isn't trying to be funny. Now he probably picks a price based on his experiences, and the warrior comes back with one based on his. But those experiences are most likely based on other people's buying/selling experiences, and so it's not just simply those two that you have to consider:

The captain of the guard wants the +1 sword because he fights better. Then again he could just hire 10 warriors and probably do a much better job of increasing his fighting potential. So if the wizard charges significantly more than what it would cost to hire 10 warriors, the captain will probably pass on it - unless the +1 sword is some sort of prestige item to him. In fact, someone with more money might want it instead, so the captain has to keep that in mind. Then again, the armory in the neighboring city might be auctioning off +1 swords that it confiscated from adventurers to pay the salaries of it's own warriors. The captain knows he can travel there, and try to find a better deal. Maybe the captain knows another wizard who needs money for an important experiment. Maybe the captain knows that his friend was just talking about how he'd pay 3,000 gp for a +1 sword, and the wizard's only charging 2,000 - therefore the captain might even have a +2 sword yet the chance of making a quick 1,000 gp profit will cause him to buy it (given the obvious conditions).

The wizard might have heard of the armory sale in the neighboring city. The wizard might know of a fellow wizard that is in desperate need of cash. Then again, the wizard might know that +1 swords have become status symbols among the nobility. The wizard might also need a quick 500 gp cash to keep an assassin from killing him (or who knows what the assassin would charge, that would be based on a potentially equally complicated analysis).

So the wizard and the captain aren't making their calculations in a vacuum, they're doing so in the context of a whole world full of potential events and characters, each of whom are making their own decisions. The prices/costs of assassins, hired warriors, and +2 swords probably also has a bearing.

Note: I didn't say that the basis of the transaction wasn't two people/groups, what I said was that the analysis was much more than just the immediate interests and knowledge of those two people. The above are examples of just some of the possibilities involved in such a transaction. Each of those factors (like what 10 warriors would charge for their services) is in itself governed by equally as many calculations and considerations. And this is what it comes down to when I said that the analysis was too complex to do on the fly. What I've been trying to say is that it's much more complicated than a lone PC approaching a lone hermit on a rocky outcropping and requesting a sword in a vacuum. Most players IME tend to go to the big city for these purchases, because cities by nature are centers for these kinds of transactions.

Even if it would be anachronistic that someone track +1 sword prices, word-of-mouth would produce an average price. How do you manage the complexity of all the various merchants, armories, wages, and people's interests and statuses? IMO you have a base price that represents an average of those forces, and maybe then you roll randomly for a +/- factor, and then make up a rationalization for that result (ex. you get low roll for the price, so someone must be dumping some +1 swords that they just found in a treasure vault)

Let's say it's an invitation-only auction for the +1 sword, and the captain is invited. You're STILL stuck having to do the same analysis, and do it for maybe 20 other people as well! No one I know has such detail built into their campaign world that they can do anything other than the most superficial of analysis at a character level. So what I've been saying, is that IMO a base price guide is a very sensible way of modeling these complexities. The base price list would show the consensus values for these items, even if they're not the kind of thing (whether because of custom, or rarity, or whatever) that you would find sitting on a store shelf. (Maybe this all depended on what I meant by "market"?)

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Well done, Sir. Much better presentation than my own.

Thank Roy Denton, not me I just point these sites out.

How do you determine the cost of materials and manufacture? Base price is always relative.

I simply assume that no-one sells a new item for less than they bought the components for. After all, a baker who sells his bread for less than it costs him for flour and the wood for his oven will soon go out of business. Okay, you might be able to buy cheap bread from him before then. In my opinion it’s simplest to assume that the majority of professionals know their business.

On that principle, basic items are easy and cartels are possible, even likely. If there are seven swordsmiths in a city and one is operating at a discount and taking trade from the others, they’ll do something about it. (Of course, if you’re like me, you’ll simply decide that the cheap sword is just that, a cheap sword. ‘You bought a sword from Discount Dave, and it broke on the skull of the first orc you hit, hard luck! If you survive the rest of the combat, you can go back and complain.’)

Rare and exotic items are worth whatever the market will bear. The items don’t have to be magical, simply ‘not from round here.’ The bottom line is, it all depends on how much ‘realism’ you want and how much world design work you’re prepared to do. That’s another reason why a lot of games assume a ‘medieval europe’ base, there is less stuff to make up.

In practical terms, if whatever rules system you have has a price list, the simplest solution is to say, that’s the price at the point of manufacture and stick on a hefty mark up for imported goods.

Evil GM trick!
When your players/characters complain that the ‘list’ price of a sword is 60d, and you’re charging them 120d, tell them that the metal is imported 200 miles from the nearest mine, and if they travel to Minehead City they’ll be able to buy it for 60d. You can then extract 100d or more from them on their epic journey to save money, and they’ll never even notice

 

[gizmo33]

How do you determine the cost of materials and manufacture? Base price is always relative.

Relative to what? If we understand "relative" to mean the same thing, then I think you've answered the question. The price of a loaf of bread is relative to the cost of the grain, salt, and fuel (baking) to make it. Those things are relative to the price of labor for threshing grain/mining salt, the price of transporting salt and grain, the price of wood/fuel, etc. Plus taxes, accidents, supply shortages and monopolies, etc.

In a specific case for determing cost of materials/manufacture, there are two main situations. One is magic items. Since magic items don't exist in the real world, a fairly simple formula exists in the 3E DMG for determining these costs.

For historical/real items, the pre-industrial historical/real prices can be researched (if you want). Or you can ball-park it based on related items values. The DMG establishes that 1 silver piece/day is the going rate for labor - this can be a useful standard for comparison since labor prices seem to be pretty easy to find in most books about social history for a given time period/culture.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I simply assume that no-one sells a new item for less than they bought the components for. After all, a baker who sells his bread for less than it costs him for flour and the wood for his oven will soon go out of business. Okay, you might be able to buy cheap bread from him before then. In my opinion it’s simplest to assume that the majority of professionals know their business.

Sure, but those components also have prices that are relative to the society that they are in.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I have the same answer for both of these questions, one AFAICT is just a specific example of the other.

Q: What does the PC wizard charge for it?
A: What he charges for it, isn't what he gets for it. Let's say he charges 1 million gp for it. In my campaign, the captain walks away laughing (or backs away in fear, depending on the level).

Let's say the wizard isn't trying to be funny. Now he probably picks a price based on his experiences, and the warrior comes back with one based on his. But those experiences are most likely based on other people's buying/selling experiences, and so it's not just simply those two that you have to consider:

The captain of the guard wants the +1 sword because he fights better. Then again he could just hire 10 warriors and probably do a much better job of increasing his fighting potential. So if the wizard charges significantly more than what it would cost to hire 10 warriors, the captain will probably pass on it - unless the +1 sword is some sort of prestige item to him. In fact, someone with more money might want it instead, so the captain has to keep that in mind. Then again, the armory in the neighboring city might be auctioning off +1 swords that it confiscated from adventurers to pay the salaries of it's own warriors. The captain knows he can travel there, and try to find a better deal. Maybe the captain knows another wizard who needs money for an important experiment. Maybe the captain knows that his friend was just talking about how he'd pay 3,000 gp for a +1 sword, and the wizard's only charging 2,000 - therefore the captain might even have a +2 sword yet the chance of making a quick 1,000 gp profit will cause him to buy it (given the obvious conditions).

The wizard might have heard of the armory sale in the neighboring city. The wizard might know of a fellow wizard that is in desperate need of cash. Then again, the wizard might know that +1 swords have become status symbols among the nobility. The wizard might also need a quick 500 gp cash to keep an assassin from killing him (or who knows what the assassin would charge, that would be based on a potentially equally complicated analysis).

So the wizard and the captain aren't making their calculations in a vacuum, they're doing so in the context of a whole world full of potential events and characters, each of whom are making their own decisions. The prices/costs of assassins, hired warriors, and +2 swords probably also has a bearing.

Note: I didn't say that the basis of the transaction wasn't two people/groups, what I said was that the analysis was much more than just the immediate interests and knowledge of those two people. The above are examples of just some of the possibilities involved in such a transaction. Each of those factors (like what 10 warriors would charge for their services) is in itself governed by equally as many calculations and considerations. And this is what it comes down to when I said that the analysis was too complex to do on the fly. What I've been trying to say is that it's much more complicated than a lone PC approaching a lone hermit on a rocky outcropping and requesting a sword in a vacuum. Most players IME tend to go to the big city for these purchases, because cities by nature are centers for these kinds of transactions.

Even if it would be anachronistic that someone track +1 sword prices, word-of-mouth would produce an average price. How do you manage the complexity of all the various merchants, armories, wages, and people's interests and statuses? IMO you have a base price that represents an average of those forces, and maybe then you roll randomly for a +/- factor, and then make up a rationalization for that result (ex. you get low roll for the price, so someone must be dumping some +1 swords that they just found in a treasure vault)

Let's say it's an invitation-only auction for the +1 sword, and the captain is invited. You're STILL stuck having to do the same analysis, and do it for maybe 20 other people as well! No one I know has such detail built into their campaign world that they can do anything other than the most superficial of analysis at a character level. So what I've been saying, is that IMO a base price guide is a very sensible way of modeling these complexities. The base price list would show the consensus values for these items, even if they're not the kind of thing (whether because of custom, or rarity, or whatever) that you would find sitting on a store shelf. (Maybe this all depended on what I meant by "market"?)

So, in other words, you need to know the relative value of the item to the seller and the buyer?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Relative to what? If we understand "relative" to mean the same thing, then I think you've answered the question. The price of a loaf of bread is relative to the cost of the grain, salt, and fuel (baking) to make it. Those things are relative to the price of labor for threshing grain/mining salt, the price of transporting salt and grain, the price of wood/fuel, etc. Plus taxes, accidents, supply shortages and monopolies, etc.

I believe that you understand exactly what I mean by saying that costs are relative.

EDIT: That's not meant to sound confrontational; that's meant to agree that you've nailed it exactly.

Since magic items don't exist in the real world, a fairly simple formula exists in the 3E DMG for determining these costs.

It does. That doesn't mean that the formula is reasonable in terms of the world it is intended to represent, however. This is, I believe, where Celebrim's metagaming comes in. From the standpoint of determining relative cost in a society, you need to determine first the utility of the item to that society and the amount of gold it is worth to the creator.

If the utility of a +1 sword is equal to 10 mercenaries hired at 5 sp/day (50 sp/day = 1,825 gp/year) then the cost of the sword would have to be significantly less than 1,825 gp for anyone (in general) to buy it. Even though the mercenaries cost more in the long run, they cost less in the short run, and this is often a driving force in sales. So, say, a +1 sword would have to cost 900 gp or less to make it cost effective.

But that's even assuming that the +1 sword is worth 10 mercenaries. The 10 mercenaries are probably more versatile than the sword. Taking this into consideration, the sword has to cost, say, 500 gp or less.

However, for the same investment of time and effort, the wizard might be able to produce something that gains him far more in return. Is he going to waste his time on that sword?

If the people of Bongo are the finest axe crafters in the world, and it costs them 10 sp to make an axe that they can sell for 15 sp, but they can make crappy hammers for 2 sp that sell for 6 sp; and the people of Tongo are the finest hammer makers in the world, but they pay 4 sp to make hammers that sell for 7 sp (although they can make crappy axes that cost 6 sp to make and sell for 12 sp), the odds are good that the world is going to be flooded with crappy (but cheaper) axes and swords, rather than finer (but more expensive) axes and swords. Unless, of course, there is some incentive other than money involved. That's economics at work.

Where the disconnect lies, I think, is in that the modern Western world is largely based upon a monetary incentive system. Most pre-modern civilizations had other incentive schemes, some of which were far more important than money, because, ultimately, they governed what you could hope to gain more than the coins in your pocket did.

The DMG establishes that 1 silver piece/day is the going rate for labor - this can be a useful standard for comparison since labor prices seem to be pretty easy to find in most books about social history for a given time period/culture.

As an aside, can a person in a D&D world reasonably survive on 1 sp/day? Assuming that the person has even one non-laboring dependent, how much does it cost to eat and be sheltered per day?


RC