D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[Argyle King]

Sorry but using the playstyle card doesn't excuse poor game design. You know damn well that a PC is not supposed to single handed take out a monster that is supposed to challenge 3 characters of equivalent level so please don't try and go there just to keep your argument going.

Dragons were never monster that were supposed to be taken down by a single PC, a goblin or an orc are.

...sounds a lot like the sentiment I had toward how (most) 4E fights I had against dragons went. To be fair, the later books helped to fix it, but it never fully went away. The first 4E campaign I played to epic ended with Orcus being stomped so badly by the party that the DM deemed it reasonable he'd surrended after my character made an intimidation check. The last 4E campaign I played to epic (which was last year) ended when the DM decided it wasn't worth dragging out the end battle because the party was winning so overwhelmingly. Things improved, and the numbers got better, but the end result was more-or-less the same.

note: I'm not picking on 4E. I'm simply pointing out that some of the same problems* with the ideals behind the game appear to still be there. Certainly, such things did sometimes occur in other editions as well; it wasn't uncommon for a 3rd Edition fight to end after a well places save-or-die spell. The unpredictable nature of conflict means that sometimes things will go in unexpected and sometimes one-sided directions. Still, it seems to me that it happens more frequently among the more recent designs of the game. The PCs running roughshod over their adversaries too often seems to be par for the course rather than an event born from a lucky roll, unforeseen combination of spells and abilities, and/or a well timed use of an ability or terrain.

*Which may or may not be viewed as problems at all depending upon your preferences and playstyle.

 

[Stalker0]

Wow!

So now we are going to pretend that dragons have always been used in groups of 3 or 4 because each PC is normally able to take care of one on their own.

I'm not sure if you are just trying to "win" the argument or what.

Lets dial down the attitude a bit, and stick to debating the points.

--Stalker0

 

[Baumi]

I think much of the problem is just the sling part .. if the hafling would have used a (short-)bow than it would not seem that ridicilus.

Also the Halfing was extremly lucky (got his sneak attack, made his saves, hit with every attack and rolled good damage) while the dragon only hit one of his attacks (which took nearly half of the hp's of the halfling!). Actually without the sneak attack, I don't think the halfling would have had a chance...

By the way, I think that it works as intended, since it is an even-level fight which usually goes in favor of the heroes (A level 1 hero vs. a level 1 Kobold is nearly always a win for the hero). So either there should be Solo/Elite Monsterscategory again or you should simply have to take higher level Dragons (thanks to bounded accuracy, that should work quite easily).

 

[Klaus]

I think much of the problem is just the sling part .. if the hafling would have used a (short-)bow than it would not seem that ridicilus.

A sling stone deals a huge ammount of damage IRL, and is quite capable of breaking bones and ribs upon impact.

Here's a YouTube video of a sling in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nj4_3ynNj8o

 

[Neonchameleon]

That shouldn't happen in D&D. Dragons should be nigh-impossible to sneak up on.

I couldn't disagree more for two reasons. Firstly it's how the original players took dragons out - fair fights are for suckers. Second, one of the defining features of dragons is their arrogance - they aren't going to bother preparing for puny snacks that wander into their lair - they know they can defeat them. If it's not another dragon or a major demon, a dragon should not be worried. Dragons should be some of the easiest monsters to sneak up on - even if they spot you they are simply going to be amused. After all they know they are intelligent armoured balls of fire-breathing meanness and you're just lunch.

That also shouldn't happen in D&D. Dragons should have hide no normal blade can pierce, let alone a rock.

Which is precisely why dragons have a high AC. To hit a dragon you need to hit it somewhere vulnerable - the underbelly, the joints, the eye, straight down the throat. If they didn't have a tough hide they should have an AC of about two - they are, after all, very large targets. I see no problem with a fairly hard hit from an expert on a surprised monster.

Sounds like we may have a problem with the dragon not having the robust, boss-like defenses it should have, coupled with perhaps an issue with Evasion.

Possibly also with sneak attack at present being just too good. But yes, it took 4e years to get Solos right (I'm not sure whether the MM3 did or it only happened in MV).

Do you see this as something that'd be too complicated to run, just about right or too simple if it was converted to D&D? (Def = defense, the roll to hit it; Res = resistance, the roll to damage it; Resolve is like a saving throw vs. Will or Fort; in each case attacker and defender draw playing cards to add to the values listed)

Fire Dragon, Ancient
Gargantuan Winged Quadruped (Dragon, Fire)
Str: 13♦ Dex: 5♣ Int: 9♥ Pre: 10♠
Mel: 7 Ran: 6 Mag: 6
Def: 1 (7♣) Res: 11 (20♣A4)
Resolve: 15♠ (20♠) Wounds: 34
Vision: Darksight Speed: Normal, Flight
Enhanced
Skills: Armor (Natural) (R5) 16, Athletics (+Flying) (R3)
16, Endurance (R5) 20, Evade (R5) 6, Knowledge
(Arcane) (R5) 14, Language (Common) (R3) 12,
Language (Draconic) (R5) 14, Perception (R5) 14,
Persuade (R5) 15, Spellcraft (Arcane) (R5) 11,
Weapon (Natural) (R5) M12/R11
Attack: Maw A12♦/D19♦ (+6 wounds + draw card
+ 1 (fire) wound) or Claws A16♦/D17♦ (+6
wounds) or Tail A13♣/20♣ (+7 wounds) or Fire
breath A11♥/P20♥ or Spells
Multiattack (R1): Make a tail, maw (A-2/D-2) and claw
(A-4/D-4) attack. On a hit, deal 1 + weapon wounds.
Armor Piercing (R2): Make a bite & claw attack and
ignore 1 point Armor or Armor skill when dealing
damage.
Improved Shieldbreaker (R3): With a ♦ card, ignore 2
points of Shield bonus and/or Evade skill and make a
bite & claw attack. On a hit, deal 1 wound (+weapon
wounds). Consequences: 1x/scene.
Dehabilitating Strike (R4): Once a scene or with a Jack+,
Make a bite & claw attack. On a hit target takes 2
wounds (+weapon wounds) and +5 penalty to actions
until a successful Endurance (Fortitude) check (Diff
17). Consequences: 1x/day.
Lay Out (R5): Requires King+. Make a bite & claws
attack. On a hit, target takes 3 wounds (+weapon
wounds), is disarmed, knocked prone and stunned
until successful Endurance (Fortitude) check (Diff 20).
Consequences: Dragon takes a wound. 1x/day.
Spells (+11): 0th-3rd circle – any card; 4th-6th circle –
one 1x/scene or Jack+; 7th circle – Queen+
Detect Magic (0th): Diff 11, Close, Instant; detect
presence of active spells or magic items
Legerdemain (0th): Diff 11, Personal, Persist; create
minor magical effect or trick.
Resistance (0th): Diff 11, Close, Instant; Target gains
+1 to next Armor check.
Charm Gaze (1st): Resv +1♦, Short Persist; Once per
scene (or using Jack+) target becomes trusted
ally. Consequence: 1x/scene; if target is
attacked, spell is broken.
Arcane Strike (2nd): A15♠/P16♠, Medium, Instant;
target takes 8 wounds. Ghostly creatures cannot
evade attack. Consequences: 1x/scene;
Cumulative wound to cast again
Dispel Magic (3rd): Diff = enemy spell casting
difficulty, Short, Instant; End active spell on target.
Polymorph (4th): Diff 17, Personal,
Scene; Take shape of another
creature whose Primary ability scores
do not exceed 20. Gain shape’s Strength
and Dexterity, racial abilities and natural
attack modes.
Rot (5th): A13♠/F18♠, Close, Scene; Target takes 9
wounds + draw card for wound. Target takes –3
penalty to all skill checks and cannot heal
wounds until successful Endurance (Fortitude)
check (Diff 15). Consequences: 1x/scene.
Cumulative wound to cast again.
Scry (6th): Diff 20, Extreme, Persist; View remotely
and gain +5 bonus to Perception (Spot).
Consequences: 1x/scene.
Blast Fireball (7th): A12♠/P19♠, Long, Instant; Up to
6 targets take 10 (fire) wounds + draw card for
wound. Target takes wound every other round
until it makes successful Endurance (Physical)
check (Diff 18). Consequences: Dragon takes a
wound. For each extra wound, can affect +1
target. 1x/day Cumulative wound to cast again.
Binding (8th): Resv +4♦, Close, Day; Imprison
creature of up to 6 wounds. Draw card for extra
wound to imprison. Can release to perform
service by discarding a ♠ face card. After a day,
the creature is free. Consequences: Dragon
takes a wound. For each additional wound taken,
can imprison +1 wound creature, up to 10
wounds. 1x/day.
Hail of Meteors (9th): A11♠/ P20♠, Long, Instant; Up
to five targets take 11 (fire) wounds + draw card
for extra wound. Targets take 1 wound every
other round until it makes a successful Endurance
(Physical) check (Diff 22). Consequences:
Dragon takes a wound. For each additional
wound taken +1 target. 1x/day. Cumulative
wound to use again.
Fire Breath (3x/Scene): Att +0♥/Phys +5♥,
Medium range, Persist. Deals 7 (fire) wounds up
to 5 targets. Target takes 1 (fire) wound every
other turn until successful Endurance (Physical)
check (Diff 20).
Fire Immune: An ancient fire dragon takes no
damage from fire attacks.

I'm not seeing a story there. What I'm seeing is a bag of hit points with a random collection of abilities and no indication of how to use them. As DM I don't need to know everything the dragon can do under stress, I need to know what it is going to do. Some sort of narrative pattern - I can't from that tell whether it wants to hang back like a caster, incinerate, or go in tooth and claw.

 

[Klaus]

Maybe give the red dragon, for starters, resistance to nonmagical weapons (meaning anything nonmagical deals half-damage)? This pares the rogue's damage down to 20 per round.

 

[B.T.]

Uh...to be honest, I don't really care that the rogue is doing huge damage with a sling. (Hitting for 40 damage with one attack vs. hitting with four attacks doing 10 damage each is not really all that different.) The issue is that, in my mind, a fight with a dragon should never be an "easy" or "settled" fight. Some monsters should be scarier than others, and a dragon should be a "boss" monster.

 

[sheadunne]

Has anyone run the same encounter without using any of the modules (that that we really know which is core and which is a module)?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I couldn't disagree more for two reasons. Firstly it's how the original players took dragons out - fair fights are for suckers. Second, one of the defining features of dragons is their arrogance - they aren't going to bother preparing for puny snacks that wander into their lair - they know they can defeat them. If it's not another dragon or a major demon, a dragon should not be worried. Dragons should be some of the easiest monsters to sneak up on - even if they spot you they are simply going to be amused. After all they know they are intelligent armoured balls of fire-breathing meanness and you're just lunch.

Arrogance =/= "easy to sneak up on." The dragon certainly knows the rogue is there. They may choose not to act in their arrogance, but they are not surprised.

Which is precisely why dragons have a high AC. To hit a dragon you need to hit it somewhere vulnerable - the underbelly, the joints, the eye, straight down the throat. If they didn't have a tough hide they should have an AC of about two - they are, after all, very large targets. I see no problem with a fairly hard hit from an expert on a surprised monster.

If some burglar with a leather strap and a rock can hit you, you do not have robust defenses. If the player can hit you without having to do anything special as a player, that's not exciting or interesting or notable. That's not an impenetrable defense where weaknesses are exposed through clever strategy of experts, it's just an excuse for boring gameplay.

Possibly also with sneak attack at present being just too good. But yes, it took 4e years to get Solos right (I'm not sure whether the MM3 did or it only happened in MV).

There's a few good theories on how to improve them that I think 5e should crib from. I think the idea that not all dragons SHOULD be solos is persuasive, but at the same time, I certainly want MY dragons to be solos.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I couldn't disagree more for two reasons. Firstly it's how the original players took dragons out - fair fights are for suckers. Second, one of the defining features of dragons is their arrogance - they aren't going to bother preparing for puny snacks that wander into their lair - they know they can defeat them. If it's not another dragon or a major demon, a dragon should not be worried. Dragons should be some of the easiest monsters to sneak up on - even if they spot you they are simply going to be amused. After all they know they are intelligent armoured balls of fire-breathing meanness and you're just lunch.

Arrogance =/= "easy to sneak up on." The dragon certainly knows the rogue is there. They may choose not to act in their arrogance, but they are not surprised.

Which is precisely why dragons have a high AC. To hit a dragon you need to hit it somewhere vulnerable - the underbelly, the joints, the eye, straight down the throat. If they didn't have a tough hide they should have an AC of about two - they are, after all, very large targets. I see no problem with a fairly hard hit from an expert on a surprised monster.

If some burglar with a leather strap and a rock can hit you, you do not have robust defenses. If the player can hit you without having to do anything special as a player, that's not exciting or interesting or notable. That's not an impenetrable defense where weaknesses are exposed through clever strategy of experts, it's just an excuse for boring gameplay.

Possibly also with sneak attack at present being just too good. But yes, it took 4e years to get Solos right (I'm not sure whether the MM3 did or it only happened in MV).

There's a few good theories on how to improve them that I think 5e should crib from. I think the idea that not all dragons SHOULD be solos is persuasive, but at the same time, I certainly want MY dragons to be solos.