D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[steeldragons]

Maybe give the red dragon, for starters, resistance to nonmagical weapons (meaning anything nonmagical deals half-damage)? This pares the rogue's damage down to 20 per round.

Immediately my thought, Klaus. Well, almost...

Make the Dragon the "magical beast" it should always be.

Make Magical beast = can't be hit without a magical weapon. Not half-damage. NO damage!

A 14th level rogue with all of their +'s for this n' that n' feats n' levels n' skills/proficiencies n' whatever else gets thrown in to the "hit roll" (not to mention, as someone has, a Dragon would be, quite literally, the size of the side of the proverbial barn) can and should be able to hit the dragon all damn day. No problem. Probably even land the stones exactly where they want, every single time. I'll even say, at 14th level, I can see the rogue probably able to make "nigh impossible appearing" [to the non-rogues] evasions for half-damage...even easily or almost automatically (natch 1 always fails, always will in my games).

They should not be doing a single HP of damage without a magicked sling stone (or a bless spell or SOMEthing to make it magicky).

Just about every "slaying the dragon story" ever involves the need for a special weapon, either magical in itself or blessed by god (at least) or some kind of other supernatural aid.

From Basic on up we've had gargoyles, many undead, golems (?), night hags (I think), and many others who are IMMUNE to non-magical weapons...How is it 40 years later and dragons STILL aren't counted among them?

If you're going to go kill a dragon...at ANY level...you'd better have something magic to use on it.

Simple. Period. End.

Then the dragon can just keep going after the 14th level rogue, in its various ways, for however many rounds it takes to kill him or for the rogue to get wise that he's not doing a damn bit of damage and [wisely] attempts to get away.

 

[Klaus]

Make Magical beast = can't be hit without a magical weapon. Not half-damage. NO damage!

(...)

If you're going to go kill a dragon...at ANY level...you'd better have something magic to use on it.

Here's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I don't want a dragon, or pretty much anything else, to *require* magic. If I want to run a classic "dragonslaying" adventure, without any magic whatsoever (not even wizards and clerics), I should be able to.

Now, resistance to nonmagical weapons (i.e. half damage) is mostly okay. But immunity to nonmagical weapons? No, thank you.

 

[RangerWickett]

I think it makes sense that you can't stab a ghost.

It doesn't make sense that you can't stab a big lizard.

Magic can make the lizard's scales tougher, and so magic would be useful to make your sword's edge sharper. But unless the dragon turns into a cloud of mist, or is physically composed of lightning and fire, or exists only as a phantasm in the minds of adventurers, then real metal should be just fine for chopping up real meat.

 

[steeldragons]

Here's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. I don't want a dragon, or pretty much anything else, to *require* magic. If I want to run a classic "dragonslaying" adventure, without any magic whatsoever (not even wizards and clerics), I should be able to.

Now, resistance to nonmagical weapons (i.e. half damage) is mostly okay. But immunity to nonmagical weapons? No, thank you.

That's fine...and you're correct, it is a fundamental difference...if you want to play that, that's great.

Easy enough to say, in your game, that they can be hit with normal weapons. Requires no "messing with the rules", no mechanical ramifications. Hit 'em with a regular sword. The game "allows" that [insofar as the game "allows" anything] without having to put it in the rules. Enjoy the 3 round battle or fudge the dragon (HP or AC or whatever) to make them as tough as you want/need.

However, since D&D includes magic, at the most basic and core of its game, then it seems the default should not lean toward "Let's build this to play without magic because someone might want to."

Take the magic out at your table and have fun. The game doesn't have to tell you that...and I would go so far as to say, the game should not tell you that. That's a choice of style and/or genre for your play. The game, D&D, hasmagic and should be [and often is] structured to include it.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Now, resistance to nonmagical weapons (i.e. half damage) is mostly okay. But immunity to nonmagical weapons? No, thank you.

Why not go the "phased" route and just apply it to ALL damage?

Dragonhide: The dragon does not take damage except during turns in which it has used its breath attack. From the time it uses its breath attack, until the beginning of its next turn, a dragon takes normal damage.

Or...

Red Dragonhide: The dragon does not take damage. The exception is cold damage, which damages the dragon normally. Additionally, if the dragon takes cold damage, it takes damage from all other sources until the end of its next turn.

Or....

Weak Points: The dragon does not take damage. Roll damage normally, and if this damage exceeds X, the next attack that targets the dragon deals normal damage.

Or....

Soft Parts: The dragon does not take damage. When making an attack, a character can make a DC XX Dexterity check to have their attack deal normal damage.

Or....

Draconic Arrogance: The dragon does not take damage. It also cannot resist gloating. Whenever the dragon bloodies an enemy, or drops an enemy to 0 hp, the dragon spends its next turn gloating. From the time the dragon achieves this, until it takes X damage, it takes damage normally.

You could even customize this:

The Sword of Dragon's Bane: The dragon does not take damage. The exception is The Sword of Dragon's Bane, which deals damage normally when it hits. Additionally, if the dragon takes damage from the Sword of Dragon's Bane, it takes damage from all other sources until the end of its next turn.

You could combine it with my "Destiny" idea from my article and do it like this as an add-on module:

Draconic Destiny: As long as the dragon has any points of Destiny, it cannot take any damage. In order to deplete its Destiny, its enemies must spend Destiny in attacks: when a PC hits, they can spend a point of Destiny, and thus deplete the dragon's Destiny pool by 1 point. Once the dragon has 0 Destiny, it takes damage as normal.

Or whatever.

 

[steeldragons]

I think it makes sense that you can't stab a ghost.

It doesn't make sense that you can't stab a big lizard.

[I will leave off, for the moment, that your example was with non-magic sling stones. Sling. Stones. Be that as it may...]

Does it make sense that you can't stab a big lizard that has scales of some material akin to titanium/mithral/Captain America's shields with a run-of-the-forge sword? Creatures of primordial magic created in the dawn of the cosmos, existing since the time before time. Creatures made by their creators (or born of the cosmos itself?) to endure elements, magics, chaos and powers that humanity can scarcely comprehend let alone contend with.

Does it make sense for that kind of big lizard?

Magic can make the lizard's scales tougher, and so magic would be useful to make your sword's edge sharper. But unless the dragon turns into a cloud of mist, or is physically composed of lightning and fire, or exists only as a phantasm in the minds of adventurers, then real metal should be just fine for chopping up real meat.

I respectfully disagree (see above) and see no reason the dragon needs to have any of those qualities to require an enchanted weapon to pierce its hide and do legitimate damage [though including such creatures would be very cool, as well ].

 

[Klaus]

Take the magic out at your table and have fun. The game doesn't have to tell you that...and I would go so far as to say, the game should not tell you that. That's a choice of style and/or genre for your play. The game, D&D, hasmagic and should be [and often is] structured to include it.

But one of the expressed intents of DDN is to not *require* magic. The system is being built so that the DM need not give out a single magic item. And when he does, the PCs *will* be better. This means that you *can* take out a dragon without magic, but if you have a magic weapon, it gets easier.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yeah, requiring magic by default is a problem, but it's not a problem if individual DMs require magic. A model like the one I posted above would enable that.

 

[steeldragons]

But one of the expressed intents of DDN is to not *require* magic. The system is being built so that the DM need not give out a single magic item. And when he does, the PCs *will* be better. This means that you *can* take out a dragon without magic, but if you have a magic weapon, it gets easier.

I get the whole rarity of magic items thing. That a PC doesn't need to gain magic items to increase in power. I get it. I think it's great! And heartily agree that a PC should increase in abilities and effectiveness as they gain levels. That doesn't mean they [should] have a carte blanche to defeat everything all of the time. And as a pinnacle kind of creature/encounter for the game which bares its very name, I'm comfortable asserting that the dragon should be one of those things.

But to say the game is intended to be played "without requiring magic" is a mistaken perception...at least, I very much hope it is. And if it's not, then it is a sorely mistaken premise as a design goal for Dungeons & Dragons.

I do not think it is contradictory to say, "Magic items [or magic-users] are rare, even incredibly so." and say, "But for a dragon you're gonna need [at least] one."

There should be some things that you just can't beat. There needs to be that ephemeral...something (whatever it is, I'm not really certain. I just know that it's something I think of as integral to D&D) in the game that makes you think, as a player and a character, "OH $#!T We can't beat this! What can we do?" As you gain levels and experience, yes, you should get more powerful. Your power and experience will inform you that "We need to do/go/get X if we hope to defeat this thing!" or give you the ability to say [and likely survive], "I'll hold it off for the 10 rounds you need to complete the ritual!"

Then, there is the fact that D&D has mages and clerics and endless debates of casting systems. It has scrolls and potions and magic wands. It has ghosts and elves and, yes, dragons. Why anyone would play a game without magic and still think it can be called D&D simply does not register for me.

Another of those fundamental differences in POV, I suppose.

 

[RangerWickett]

If your dragon's scales are as tough as titanium, and my magic sword can cut through, that raises verisimilitude questions as to why I can't now just hew through rock with that sword.

But okay, you have epic magic dragons. I'm an epic fighter. Hand me a rusty hatchet and I'll hack that bastard's leg off. I roundhouse kick fire elementals and eat power words for breakfast. I ain't lettin' no stinkin' god tell me that I need an enchanted sword to kill his pet lapdragon. If I put my hand on it, you damned well better bet your ass it's ten times more magical than anything Tim the enchanter could whip up.

That said, while I am an unmitigated bad-ass across all dimensions of time and space, when I go up against the doomsday dragon hatched from the pit where all gods perish, I expect it will take me more than 3 attacks to kill it.