D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[Kobold Stew]

And this is supposed to be the one game that rules them all?

Nope -- it's a playtest of a game that isn't coming out for some time yet.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

Actually it's supposed to be the game that brings all the player's of various editions together. That excuse it's going to keep player's satisfied for too much longer if this is where the playtesting is getting us. I'm afraid WoTc doesn't have the luxury of taking it's sweet time in creating 5th edition because people are moving on to other games and getting settled in.

 

[the Jester]

Actually it's supposed to be the game that brings all the player's of various editions together. That excuse it's going to keep player's satisfied for too much longer if this is where the playtesting is getting us. I'm afraid WoTc doesn't have the luxury of taking it's sweet time in creating 5th edition because people are moving on to other games and getting settled in.

I keep hearing the "This is taking too long" line from people.

If it doesn't take a while to get it right, 5e WILL get it wrong. People are going to "move on" to other games a lot faster and in greater numbers if 5e sucks coming out the gate. This dragon-v-rogue fight is a great example of exactly how the problem areas get found and corrected. It's exactly what the playtest is for. Expecting the game to be finished when it's still late-alpha is absolutely ridiculous.

Besides, if you want them to release the game tomorrow, you're going to move on, right? Because it sounds like you're calling for WotC to release the game RIGHT NOW at the same time that you're saying, "

5e designers, TAKE YOUR TIME AND GET IT RIGHT. All these threats of "move faster or I'm out!" are silly. Move fast, lose quality, lose a large chunk of the gaming population. Move slow, let people try other games in the interim, and WHEN THE GAME IS READY, release the best game you can.

 

[Klaus]

So, the option would be to dial down player damage (Sneak Attack flat-out *doubling* Expertise Dice -- I prefer that name -- seems the most visible exaggeration). The dragon hit the rogue *once*, and took away almost 50% of his hp.

Each sling hit taking away 40-ish hit points also seems like a LOT.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

To fix the dragon, I propose a change to saving throws. Back to 4e/SW SAGA. Have that dragon attack Fort, or at least saving throws other than Reflex.

When Star Wars SAGA edition first came out, I didn't like its idea of having saving throws as defenses. It wasn't until running 4e that I saw why this was a good idea.

In my own campaign, I have an avenger PC. He has a ridiculously high AC and a high Reflex and Will defense too. (He's an elf.) Of course, to crank his Dex and Wis so high he had to sacrifice his other stats, so his Fort defense is pretty low. He's not only challenged by magic. He's challenged by dwarven fighters who have a shield bash attack that targets Fort instead of AC, or outlaw veterans who can basically have tide of iron under a different name (they're not using shields). If you look in the monster books you won't find anything like the former, and the latter (being in Threats to the Nentir Vale) only attacks AC. Fortunately 4e monsters are easy to create and modify.

Because my campaign is on Dark Sun, there are no red dragons. However, if I were to use one anyway (fire drake?) I would make sure their attacks don't just target AC and Reflex. That's not just to "get" the avenger but to ensure that the entire party is being challenged by the solo. The avenger is not the only PC in the party with a high AC, after all. An attack that targets Fort is going to challenge the avenger and another PC, but an attack that targets Will would challenge yet another pair of PCs. Etc. If a dragon had different attacks that targeted each save, it could challenge the whole party, although not in the same round. (The same heavily-armored paladin who gets victimized by the dragon's breath weapon could then resist its suggestion effect. The agile but weak-willed rogue could dodge the fire but lose its mind.)

For that dragon, I would make his tail attack be an attack versus Fort. The tail is so big it's hard to dodge, but you only take damage if it sends you flying. Therefore, it's an attack versus Fort that also pushes you. Perhaps this is doable without changing the saving throw system, as if the tail were a breath weapon that allowed a Strength rather than Dexterity saving throw.

 

[Jack99]

Actually it's supposed to be the game that brings all the player's of various editions together. That excuse it's going to keep player's satisfied for too much longer if this is where the playtesting is getting us. I'm afraid WoTc doesn't have the luxury of taking it's sweet time in creating 5th edition because people are moving on to other games and getting settled in.

Except Mearls has stated that unlike your personal opinion/experience, there are in fact more and more people participating in the playtest. Besides, I am willing to bet that if they get it right, a lot of people will return, even if they have been playing another game. After all, 2 years hardly equals forever for us roleplayers.

 

[Sekhmet]

Is it amusing to anyone else that a non-magical piece of leather, firing non-magical pebbles, nearly killed an adult dragon in three rounds? That it dealt 2/5ths of the dragon's total hit points in the first round? That, on average, it dealt about 2/9ths of the total hit points of an adult dragon?
Imagine, if you will, an adult male human. He picks up a pebble off the side of the road, and throws it very hard at an M1A2 Abrams. This pebble would bore a hole half way through to the engine block. The following two would finish the job, effectively destroying the tank with three pebbles.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You could do that in d20 Modern. At 20th-level. With an extremely optimized Martial Artist build for just that purpose. And it might not even have been legal. The M1 tank having pathetic hit points in d20 Modern was a major factor. So was the Sunder feat, which let you double damage against objects.

Would you say the problem is too much PC damage or too weak monsters? I think it's both, but mainly the former. PC damage is currently based on formula, and hasn't been adjusted by playtesting yet.

 

[Dragonblade]

My high level fighter killed three adult dragons in one combat, all by himself, back in my AD&D days. The notion of dragon as a party worthy solo really took off in 3e and 4e. They are just going back to old school dragons.

All kidding aside, I believe they said that monsters, especially high level ones, aren't nearly done yet. But yeah, I prefer dragons as solo monsters capable of taking on an entire party.

 

[mattcolville]

A friend made up a 14th level halfling rogue (76 hp, AC 17, +7 to-hit) to run in The Mud Sorcerer's Tomb. As a test, I had him fight a red dragon, which is listed as a level 14 monster (174 hp, AC 15, +7 to-hit). His only magic item was +1 mithril chain.

He sneaks up. Easily beats the dragon's Wisdom check to notice him.

The beginning of the weirdness. Dragons should have lots of enhanced senses to detect burglars. The idea that it's just an opposed Wisdom check offends my sensibilities.

That being said, if the 14th level Halfling Rogue was the only member of the party who could do it, I would be less offended. The idea that the Dragon will notice everyone *but* the high-level hobbit burglar makes sense to me.

He attacks with a sling, and between halfling luck and ace in the hole is guaranteed to hit. Sneak attack ends up at, I think, 1d6+3+2x(6d6+15). He does something like 74 damage.

If the Halfling beats the Dragon's perception, then it makes sense to me that he gets a free attack on the Dragon.

However, 74 damage from a mundane sling? No. That's absurd. I'm a reasonable man, willing to consider lots of different ideas, but a mundane sling doesn't do 74 points of damage no matter who wields it. David can kill Goliath with a mundane sling, because he is favored by God and also because he's not playing D&D.

Roll initiative. The rogue uses his skill dice to add 1d10, and easily beats the dragon.

Seems reasonable.

He makes a normal sling attack, then runs to cover. Hits for another 40-ish damage. (114 dmg vs. 174 hp)

Objection!

The dragon flies after the halfling, claw/claw/bites. Only hits with the bite, doing 33 damage. (33 dmg vs. 76 hp)

The halfling provokes an opportunity attack to run, and gets to add his skill die to his AC. The dragon misses. The halfling slings the dragon again and manages to get into a narrow space, where the dragon will have to squeeze if it wants to attack him. The sling does another 40-ish damage, and the dragon is nearly dead.

The dragon breathes fire into the narrow space where the halfling is trying to hide, but hey, evasion. Halfling takes no damage.

The halfling walks up with a short sword and stabs the dragon to death.


That was pathetic.

This is just Severely Underpowered Dragon vs Severely Overpowered Halfling. A halfling rogue who routinely outputs somewhere between 40 and 70 points of damage, vs a dragon who usually missed and only does 30-something when he hits doesn't make any sense to me.