D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[Stalker0]

Seems like a great thing to note in your playtest feedback, I am glad you all tried it out.

But it doesn't bode the end of the world, just an issue that will get fixed.

 

[Sekhmet]

Seems fine to me. I mean Smaug died from a single crit. Though I do think that PCs may be doing a smidge too much damage.

Arrow of Death, crafted specifically for Smaug, striking the only spot on his body without armor to protect, that lead straight to his heart.
Not a pebble fired from an ordinary sling striking against the hard, armor plated scales.

 

[mattcolville]

Seems fine to me. I mean Smaug died from a single crit. Though I do think that PCs may be doing a smidge too much damage.

Smaug died offscreen to an NPC. The GM didn't even have to roll.

 

[beej]

To OP: This is very informative for my own upcoming stress test. In my case it would be a party of 11th level characters against a red dragon at the end of a dungeon, so we'll see how it works.

Without the luxury of getting my group to test it out, yet, the issues I personally note from the dragon are:

1) No reactions. It would be nice if it can make that tail attack as a reaction.

2) Saving throw DCs. They recently scaled up the save DCs. I would like the dragon's presence and breath weapon to be in the upscale of the range between moderate and hard. Say, DC 18-19? (As a personal note I would have given a disadvantage to dex saves in narrow spaces, evasion or not. But hey that's more of a DM call.)

3) AC. Too low. I feel like red dragons should be comparable in AC to a guy in plate armor (18)

4) Attack bonus. Too low. If the dragon gets +7 for str, shouldn't there be a +1-3 proficiency with natural weapons or something? That being said, the damage seems fine. Had two of those three attacks hit, that would have already dealt more than half of the rogue's hp. I can only imagine how painful it would be to an 11th-12th level character, in comparison.

Now on the rogue: Without saying that its dmg output is too high/too low/just right (I have yet to form an opinion), I will note that it's interesting how, as a community, we seem to have flip-flopped between "the rogue's damage is too low" and "the rogue's damage is too high" with the last two playtest packets. I hope there's a sweet spot somewhere.

 

[RangerWickett]

Smaug being the icon of an ancient dragon, I'd expect his AC to be nigh-unhittable most of the time. Now this dragon apparently isn't quite that tough, but I think any huge dragon should have an AC tougher than anything mundane humans get, so I'd peg it at AC 20.

Really, I'd like to see a bit more drama in its attacks. Why would a huge dragon just nip you, instead of clamping you in its teeth and swinging its head back and forth to snap your neck? Why don't its claw attacks pin a puny little human or halfling to the ground?

 

[Blackwarder]

I like the way the current rogue feels, my only problem is that I feel that his martial dice should be d4 instead of d6.

I really like the way ACKS has done dragons and I think that WoTC should take a look at it.

Warder

 

[RACER_X?HAHAHA]

Arrow of Death, crafted specifically for Smaug, striking the only spot on his body without armor to protect, that lead straight to his heart.
Not a pebble fired from an ordinary sling striking against the hard, armor plated scales.

So a crit with a magic weapon, still only one hit.

 

[Sekhmet]

So a crit with a magic weapon, still only one hit.

Magic weapon that causes death if it hits, regardless of it's target. May as well be an artifact.

 

[Klaus]

Smaug being the icon of an ancient dragon, I'd expect his AC to be nigh-unhittable most of the time. Now this dragon apparently isn't quite that tough, but I think any huge dragon should have an AC tougher than anything mundane humans get, so I'd peg it at AC 20.

Really, I'd like to see a bit more drama in its attacks. Why would a huge dragon just nip you, instead of clamping you in its teeth and swinging its head back and forth to snap your neck? Why don't its claw attacks pin a puny little human or halfling to the ground?

Seems DDN needs to borrow more effects from the 4e dragons. Instinctive Action took care of the "losing initiative" problem (dragon takes a type-appropriate action at Initiative +10, like breathing, charging, etc).

And I'll say: I'm not really a fan of a dragon's claw/claw/bite routine (as sacred a cow as it is). Dragons are often depicted as having longer necks than forelegs, so it should really be a bite attack only (possibly with a fling effect to toss enemies aside, or a "breathe through teeth" for dramatic effect). The only way I see a dragon clawing at an enemy would be to charge and grab a similarly-sized opponent (so it can bite its head off) or to pin down a smaller enemy.

 

[Pour]

And I'll say: I'm not really a fan of a dragon's claw/claw/bite routine (as sacred a cow as it is). Dragons are often depicted as having longer necks than forelegs, so it should really be a bite attack only (possibly with a fling effect to toss enemies aside, or a "breathe through teeth" for dramatic effect). The only way I see a dragon clawing at an enemy would be to charge and grab a similarly-sized opponent (so it can bite its head off) or to pin down a smaller enemy.

I think it'd be nice if they took some sort of anatomy of the various dragon types into account. Maybe a red dragon did function with the bite/thrash as suits its neck length and jaws, but I wouldn't mind a blue dragon to go straight for a gorge or trample, etc. One step beyond even that, how about including a pool of various anatomical, magical, passive, critical, special, and breath abilities that we could mix and match (and change energy types) to design our own dragons right out the gate? Give us a chart with handy numerical values for wyrmling, juvenile, young adult, adult, ancient, and progenitor (I imagine that last one like mythic in status, the oldest or first of its kind) to determine power, damage, and breadth of abilities. I want the Monster Manual to be more like a cookbook or builder's guide, I guess, with easily referenced defenses and attack bonuses so that the DM defines what is means to be iconic and D&D in their given world.