D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[beej]

We shouldn't need to throw a dozen dragons at a party just to make them sweat.

Doesn't that depend on what level the party is? I like to think that that a dozen dragons is standard fare for a level 20 party.

 

[Klaus]

Actually, I'd rather see four adventurers (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard Cleric) doing no more than about 20% of the dragon's HP a round, with the dragon returning about 15% of the party's total hit point in return each round. I'd like to see an unsaved breath weapon doing about 50%-75% of one PC's HP in damage, but probably only usable as one big blast once a combat.

That would mean that a single rogue's damage output per round would be about 5% of the dragon's HP per round. That would have been about 8 hp of damage a round, if the dragon kept it's 174 hp total. [Wow - each party member doing just 8 hp of damage a round could kill a 174 hp dragon in ~6 rounds - that's ... amazing] Adding in a big "whump" of sneak attack damage, and the dragon should've probably had about 30 hp more for each time the rogue could have used his sneak attack.

That's a perfectly valid description. I agree, a four-PC party should take about 5 to 10 rounds (averaging about 8-ish?) to defeat a dragon.

However much damage Sneak Attack deals is dependable on how often it can be used. If Sneak Attack can simply be triggered when you have advantage, then it should double MDD (maybe add an extra MDD or two). If it's an "encounter" ability (like the Essentials' "Backstab"), then it can be much more dramatic.

And monster defenses need to be bumped up considerably.

 

[Klaus]

That shouldn't happen in D&D. Dragons should be nigh-impossible to sneak up on.



That also shouldn't happen in D&D. Dragons should have hide no normal blade can pierce, let alone a rock.

I'm wary of blanket restrictions like these. Siegfried did hide from a dragon, to the point where the dragon just *walked above him* without noticing the little human inside a hole. I do agree that dragons need to be harder to sneak up on (the dwarves took a hobbit for a reason) and to hit (see below).

Okay, rogues are slippery, I'm good with this. Tight spaces make a lot of sense in a dragon fight.

Agreed. Would-be dragonslayers trying to take on a dragon on open ground *should* become dragon-snack.

D&D dragons should be MUCH more difficult to hit than this.

I agree, and this actually apply to most creatures in the Bestiary. I'm okay with red dragons, balors and Asmodeus having an AC that low-level characters can't hit without a natural 20, even if this means unflattening the math just a smidge.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'm wary of blanket restrictions like these.

For me, that's part of what it means to be a "boss fight."

Rogues can hide and sneak. That's their shtick. They should do that against their enemies -- it's their first go-to strategy, because they're great at it, and get a lot of benefits from it.

But against a dragon, your normal strategy should be useless. Rogues can't sneak up. Fighter's can just wail on it. Wizards find their spells shrugged off. Clerics find their buffs stripped away and their healing to be unable to keep up with the damage. To fight a significant battle like this, it's going to require some non-linear thinking and some different, unique strategies. It should also require you to work in tandem: maybe the rogue CAN sneak up, IF the fighter is distracting it with an axe to the face.

That's part of what makes it different and memorable, the fact that you can't just press the "lose hp" button again and again like you do in a normal fight. You have to do some new thinking, change up your pattern, and try something new -- if you don't, you get pwned.

Admittedly, that's asking D&D dragons to be something more like they've wanted to be than like they HAVE been. It's not something that high AC necessarily does. It's something that trigger events and specific strategies can help with -- it demands each "boss monster" be a little unique. And I'm great with that, personally.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I've never seen Mearls be anything but scrupulously honest, so I hope you aren't calling him a liar.

If the numbers dropped, I'd expect him to say nothing at all.

I don't know Mearls personally and I doubt you do as well so you can't guarantee anything nor can you guarantee everything he's said has been honest. He works for a mega corp so who knows what's a lie and what's not.

Mod Note: Please see my post later in the thread. ~Umbran

 

[Klaus]

For me, that's part of what it means to be a "boss fight."

Rogues can hide and sneak. That's their shtick. They should do that against their enemies -- it's their first go-to strategy, because they're great at it, and get a lot of benefits from it.

But against a dragon, your normal strategy should be useless. Rogues can't sneak up. Fighter's can just wail on it. Wizards find their spells shrugged off. Clerics find their buffs stripped away and their healing to be unable to keep up with the damage. To fight a significant battle like this, it's going to require some non-linear thinking and some different, unique strategies. It should also require you to work in tandem: maybe the rogue CAN sneak up, IF the fighter is distracting it with an axe to the face.

That's part of what makes it different and memorable, the fact that you can't just press the "lose hp" button again and again like you do in a normal fight. You have to do some new thinking, change up your pattern, and try something new -- if you don't, you get pwned.

Admittedly, that's asking D&D dragons to be something more like they've wanted to be than like they HAVE been. It's not something that high AC necessarily does. It's something that trigger events and specific strategies can help with -- it demands each "boss monster" be a little unique. And I'm great with that, personally.

I wouldn't say "useless", but I agree with you that against a dragon, characters have to earn their pay. And yes, the fighter creating a diversion for the rogue is a good example of how to handle things. Or the wizard casting invisibility on the rogue, or the cleric making the fighter resistant to a breath weapon (for a while, at least).

Back to the "hitting dragon with sling stone": I'm imaginging a human hitting a rhinoceros or an elephant with a sling stone. It should not do enough damage to kill the creature without extreme luck, even in a heroic fantasy setting. A dragon fight should at least take as much time and require as much effort as the cave troll battle in Fellowship of the Ring (where it took the concerted efforts of Gandalf, Gimli, Legolas and one of the hobbits to bring down).

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I imagine a group of PC's needing to exhaust almost all their resources to take out a dragon. Also, I don't imagine a sling taking out a dragon unless it's the legendary "Sling of Ages" that was created when the soul of the ancient boy king Phylthas entered the weapon as a sacrifice to his kingdom that he loved so much. (Example)

 

[B.T.]

At this point, 5e is just embarrassing itself.

 

[Stormonu]

Yeah, they should do more playtesting

 

[Sunseeker]

At this point, 5e is just embarrassing itself.

What a constructive, insightful comment.