D&D 5E Lvl 14 rogue vs. (lvl 14) red dragon

[Grimmjow]

depends on the age of the dragon (which better show up at some point) but ya a level 14 character should not be able to solo a level 14 dragon. also wizards....more distinction between the dragons please

 

[Stormonu]

The halfling damage output is what really feels off to me. Getting 40 damage should be something that requires some positioning/flanking in my mind, otherwise it should be in the neighborhood of a steady weapon+ability mod damage. If that had been the case, I think the dragon would have clearly won.

And perhaps evasion should only negate if you are on the edge of an area attack. Otherwise, perhaps it should reduce damage by say, your level (or some multiple).

 

[Stormonu]

However, 74 damage from a mundane sling? No. That's absurd. I'm a reasonable man, willing to consider lots of different ideas, but a mundane sling doesn't do 74 points of damage no matter who wields it. David can kill Goliath with a mundane sling, because he is favored by God and also because he's not playing D&D.

If Goliath had been a 7th level fighter, he could have easily had 74 hit points. People tend to forget that D&D's hit point system has NOTHING to do with body mass.

 

[pming]

Hiya.

I'll make this short-ish.

They're doing it backwards. The dragon shouldn't get "tougher"...the rogue should get *weaker*. Fix evasion to not be a "What? Sorry, I was eating my stew...the fireball came from behind me? Hold on...roll...made it. I keep eating my stew as the fireball erupts around me, stopping at 1" away from me because I wiggled a bit in my chair. Evasion. ".

IMHO, a 14th level rogue should NOT have more than about 40hp...his AC should be "ok" but *no where near* the level a 14th level fighters should be. His damage should be pathetic...only kicking into "wow!" if he successfully 'backstabs' something. Basically, a rogue should NOT be a 'damage dealer' class...the rogue should be hiding in the shadows behind the wizard, waiting for an opportunity to hide in shadows/move silently to sneak attack, or shooting his bow for support. The rogue shouldn't be leaping, tumbling and dodging into combat slicing up an opponent...that's what a lightly armored, nimble-based FIGHTER should be doing.

Anyway, yeah. The way the playtest is going now, they're doing it all backwards...trying to make PC's "tougher". For some reason they seem to be equating "heroics" with "high numbers". They obviously do not have very much experience roleplaying, because in my experience, heroics is something that comes from *low* numbers and having the odds stacked distinctively *against* you.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Raith5]

To fix the dragon, I propose a change to saving throws. Back to 4e/SW SAGA. Have that dragon attack Fort, or at least saving throws other than Reflex.

When Star Wars SAGA edition first came out, I didn't like its idea of having saving throws as defenses. It wasn't until running 4e that I saw why this was a good idea.

...

For that dragon, I would make his tail attack be an attack versus Fort. The tail is so big it's hard to dodge, but you only take damage if it sends you flying. Therefore, it's an attack versus Fort that also pushes you. Perhaps this is doable without changing the saving throw system, as if the tail were a breath weapon that allowed a Strength rather than Dexterity saving throw.

Great points. I really like the elegance of static defenses and attacks that target defenses rather than AC or reflex. I hope this kind of logic infuses itself in DDN in some form - it is a type of nuance which can add a lot of tactical fun to a RPG.

 

[RACER_X?HAHAHA]

Seems fine to me. I mean Smaug died from a single crit. Though I do think that PCs may be doing a smidge too much damage.

 

[MortalPlague]

I'm with the folks saying "overpowered halfling" and "underpowered dragon". I think what we're seeing with this push is the stress test for bounded accuracy. This is as flat as they dare to make the math. They want to see how it goes, how people react, and how situations like this shape up. I expect for the actual game, we'll see a bit more scaling on the part of monsters and PCs.

Also, this raises an interesting question; what is an equal-level monster? Should it be a challenge? Should it be a speedbump? Should a L14 rogue actually be fighting a L19 dragon ala 4th Edition? These things are important to consider. If you took a 4th Ed PC and pitted them against an equal level monster, it's a cakewalk. But combat in 4th can be very tough.

I'm planning to do my own tests. My PCs are level 3, they'll probably hit 4 by the time next session is done. At the end of the session, I'm going to try and run an 'out-of-game' dragon fight, and see how the PCs stack up against a dragon. I have 5 PCs, and they have 3 hirelings, so a party of 8 might just be able to take down a L11 dragon.

 

[Klaus]

To fix the dragon, I propose a change to saving throws. Back to 4e/SW SAGA. Have that dragon attack Fort, or at least saving throws other than Reflex.

Chalk me up as a fan of Fort/Ref/Will, each informed by one of two abilities (Str/Con, Dex/Int, Wis/Cha). I know the desire to return to "roll a saving throw" is great, but sometimes you have to cut out your favorite part of something for the rest to "click" into place.

IMHO, the rogue should be doing something like 10% of the dragon's total hp per round, on average. On a successful Sneak Attack, the rogue should be taking something like 25% of the total (an assassin rogue, with an optimized attack that can't be repeated in a single fight, should be able to take out sbout 66% of a dragon's total hp). Conversely, the dragon should be taking out 25% of the rogue's hp with a single attack, or 50% with a seldomly-used breath weapon.

Thinking of these figures as percentages would then guides through the actual damage calculation.

 

[Rune]

Chalk me up as a fan of Fort/Ref/Will, each informed by one of two abilities (Str/Con, Dex/Int, Wis/Cha). I know the desire to return to "roll a saving throw" is great, but sometimes you have to cut out your favorite part of something for the rest to "click" into place.

IMHO, the rogue should be doing something like 10% of the dragon's total hp per round, on average. On a successful Sneak Attack, the rogue should be taking something like 25% of the total (an assassin rogue, with an optimized attack that can't be repeated in a single fight, should be able to take out sbout 66% of a dragon's total hp). Conversely, the dragon should be taking out 25% of the rogue's hp with a single attack, or 50% with a seldomly-used breath weapon.

Thinking of these figures as percentages would then guides through the actual damage calculation.

In my opinion, the Armor Class should actually just be a bonus which could be applied to one ability or another (as determined appropriate by the situation, or stat block) to provide any given defense for an attacker to roll against. The main distinction between such an attack and an ability that requires a saving throw would be the necessity of such an attack to actually hit an opponent, rather than simply make them resist it.

So, for example, that tail-slap would target Constitution--with the AC bonus added. Any attack that both caused fear and required an actual hit could target Wisdom. Most attacks that could be dodged would still be targeted toward Dex. Attacks that weaken the mind while also being required to actually have to hit would target Intelligence. An attack that physically weakened a target would be against Strength and an attack against someone's character would target Charisma.

Obviously, some overlap immediately presents itself. But that's okay. If a player could make a reasonable and very quick argument that the attack should target a different stat--before the attack is rolled (whether as the attacker, or defender), than it could target said stat instead.

Any attack that doesn't actually need to hit, but needs to be resisted, instead, would require a saving throw according to the current rules for those.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Maybe you could have both...

3 defenses, each powered by 2 paired stats, and ability checks as saving throws. I don´t know if it´s worth it... i guess no.

I however do believe, that there should be powers attacking a stat, and the pure stat works as DC for the power. This would make every point meaningful and maybe produce useful values, with big enough ranges...

And last, I think the attack bonus needs to scale a little more, while damage needs to scale a bit less. I would like this balance more than just a pure damage scale, as it generally feels a lot better to hit more often, than only doing more damage... especially if low level monsters have pathetic hp anyway.