Lycanthropy

[Hawken]

Question is.. he was bitten while he was still 2nd level... is he still afflicted?

Once he reaches 3rd level, he becomes immune to the disease...and Lycanthropy is specifically mentioned, so, yes, he would be immune to it.

If you're looking to use Lycanthropy as a plot device, there are options available:

--You could ignore the immunity and have him still being affected, but that will likely make the player unhappy as you're throwing one of his class abilities right out the window. If you go this route and want him to become afflicted, then you should give him another ability in return for striping him of his Divine Health. If you go this route, the onset could be delayed for weeks or maybe a month or so. Maybe if he is able to find the rat that infected him (if its not dead already), or the rat that infected the rat that infected him, he could be cured. Racing against the clock to solve that problem before the paladin changes could definitely add some excitement to the game.

--You could keep the disease in his blood. Maybe he doesn't change (so long as he remains a paladin), but he could still potentially infect others. He could still be vulnerable to things like wolvesbane, but is otherwise asymptomatic. This could keep him from marrying and having children and really develop the unrequited love aspect of the paladin class that was mentioned in depth in the 2e Paladin's Handbook. It's an older edition, but still a good source for paladin stuff.

--Maybe other lycanthropes will recognize him as one of their own, even if he is no longer susceptible to lycanthropy. It adds to the roleplaying aspect of the game, but won't screw with the character's class abilities. This option would also enforce that he toes the line as a paladin by serving as a constant reminder of the consequences of him straying rather than risk losing his powers and transforming into a rat.

I guess I would have wanted the PHB paragraph to say whether any current conflictions were removed or not, but I guess they couldn't think of everything...I just know the player will object due to Divine Health, so I wanted to find out how to interpret the rule. In any case, I would like to level him to 3rd so as not to alert him just yet. I won't take away from him the paladin abilities or give him the wererat special qualities before he finds out either.

Keep in mind though that the Divine Health makes him immune to diseases and if you go ahead and give him the lycanthropy when he has just become immune to it, he'd have every right to complain--unless your game is set in Ravenloft where even paladins are not immune to lycanthropy. But his immunity should stand in any other campaign. That means they no longer affect him. If he hasn't had his first transformation by the time he levels up to 3rd, the disease should not work on him at all, and if he has had his first (or a few) transformations since, then he would no longer be a paladin. The writers didn't have to put in that it gets rid of existing diseases because the phrase "becomes immune to..." covers that. The paladin becomes immune to diseases, all diseases. Immune; not susceptible or responsive to. In the case of becoming immune, he would no longer be susceptible or responsive to lycanthropy.

Probably the best thing to do is discuss it with the paladin's player before the next session. Tell him he blew his save so he is facing the possibility of becoming a wererat (if you disregard his Divine Health). Tell the player the options you are considering. Ask the player how he wants to play this out. Ask him if he has any suggestions. Players are the ones playing the game, they should have some input when it comes to character altering, class altering events in the game. Maybe he (or she) will surprise you and come up with a good solution. Maybe they'll want to play the wererat thing out.

 

[Sejs]

Probably the best thing to do is discuss it with the paladin's player before the next session. Tell him he blew his save so he is facing the possibility of becoming a wererat (if you disregard his Divine Health). Tell the player the options you are considering. Ask the player how he wants to play this out. Ask him if he has any suggestions. Players are the ones playing the game, they should have some input when it comes to character altering, class altering events in the game. Maybe he (or she) will surprise you and come up with a good solution. Maybe they'll want to play the wererat thing out.

Seconded. Heartily.

Talk to your player.

 

[smootrk]

The ruling is surely subject to interpretation, as the Divine Health feature of a Paladin does not specifically state that diseases contracted previous to third level are spontaneously cured... it just states that the paladin is immune to diseases (upon getting the ability at third level), and note that Lycanthropy is also considered to be a curse as well.... in other words, well into the grey area.

However, I do agree that the campaign should be a collaborative effort, outside of any major plot lines you have in mind. A player who hates the idea utterly should have a cure disease/remove curse available to fix his predictament.

I also like the idea of the lycanthrope disease laying dormant (and unknown)... if the Paladin has a lapse in abilities (alignment problems) the disease manifests. The paladin who learns of his/her hidden disease makes a good candidate for a blackguard if he chooses to embrace the disease rather than seek the cure for the curse side of it.

 

[Sejs]

...and note that Lycanthropy is also considered to be a curse as well.... in other words, well into the grey area.

Not so much - the full text on Divine Health in the PHB expressly mentions Lycanthropy. The SRD trims that down, however.

"Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy)."

 

[smootrk]

Not so much - the full text on Divine Health in the PHB expressly mentions Lycanthropy. The SRD trims that down, however.

"Divine Health (Ex): At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases (such as mummy rot and lycanthropy)."

He 'gains immunity', not 'is spontaneously cured of afflictions'. Like I said, in the grey area that needs to be interpreted.

 

[Trellian]

It certainly is a grey area.. the wizard NPC was also inflicted, so I might run with the plot after all, but that it is the NPC who is guilty, thereby avoiding the problem. The poor player became a lycanthrope the last time he played a paladin as well (back in 2nd ed when paladins could still contract the curse), so he is an unlucky son of a female dog. On the other hand, his backstory contained a near fatal encounter with lycanthropes prior to adventuring, so him becoming a wererat may be a good plotstory after all.

In any case, he won't notice anything next session as it takes place before the next full moon, so he can also have it cured by spells within 3 days. This brings up another question.. is it any way to find out if someone has the curse/disease? Is there such a spell as Detect Curse/disease? Maybe a Heal check?

 

[winterwolf]

I guess you could charm them several times. Lycanthropes are shapechangers, and charm person only affects humanoids. I don't know if that is metagame or not...
Usually if someone in our party is bitten we give them belladonna just in case. Then we keep a watch on them the next full moon.
Also, relics and rituals 2 has a spell (detect shapechangers, clrc 1, rgr 1, sor/wiz 1) that works like detect magic, only it detects shapechangers.
The SRD states that you can use break enchantment or remove curse to give the char another save (will dc 20) to remove lycanthropy. Also, a heal or remove disease cast by a lvl 12 cleric cures lycanthropy.
And I notice that I made a mistake earlier when I stated that you don't change alignment until you voluntarily change. That was the 3.0 rule. Now, apparently, every time you change shape you have to make a will roll (dc 15+1 per previous changes into animal form) or permanently become the alignment of that animal. So, theoretically, a person could change on the night of the full moon without knowing, and become evil. On the other hand, a person with a good will (and some luck) could go for months without changing alignment, but still using the form.

 

[smootrk]

Extrapolating on the alignment change.

If you want to stretch the process out a bit more, you can make the alignment change occur in stages. For each failed save (mentioned by Winterwolf), have the alignment change one step at time... first from LG, to NG, to CG, then along the good/evil axis... from CG, to CN, then finally CE.

This would give the character a little more time with at least similar sensibilities, although the standard paladin abilities would be lost on the first alignment change (according to RAW, although you may want to HR a gradual loss of Paladin abilities... like surprise! your Lay Hands Ability does not seem to be functioning). This process would be a little more interesting IMO, as it would allow the player to roleplay the process with a little more believability than just an instant... bang, now you are CE ! (and possibly a NPC).

Sounds fun, like characters in an old were-wolf movie.

 

[Treebore]

First off, they immediately gain the level adjustment, so he should have been treated as a 4th level character, so he would now be a character working their way to 5th level, with 2 levels as a paladin and 2 levels for being a wererat.

However, the way I do it is they are not a wererat until the next cycle of full moons. Or they are forced to change due to damage received in combat ( I use Goodman Games Compleat books on wererats and Werewolves).

So as I understand your situation the Paladin would have become immune to it before it became "full blown", so he never finished the conversion. So, apparently, his god has other things in store for him.

BTW, cures for diseases in real life involve becoming immune. So the paladins becoming immune should mean he is cured, but you are the god of your campaign world, so do it however you wish.

 

[smootrk]

BTW, cures for diseases in real life involve becoming immune. So the paladins becoming immune should mean he is cured, but you are the god of your campaign world, so do it however you wish.

Your statement should say "usually involves becoming immune." Many disease components mutate constantly. I had Chicken Pox twice as a child, and many other diseases and pathogens have countless varieties that are all grouped together (influenza for instance). I agree with you that it should work however you want your campaign to operate.