Mage:the Awakening is out. Opinions?

[GRIMJIM]

If White Wolf wrote its books in consideration of comic books, you might have a point. But censoring yourself for the sake of Aquaman readers makes no creative or economic sense. The idea that Mage should pay more attention to DC Comics than occult literature is . . . amusing.

That's fine if by 'Occult Literature' you mean cheap and nasty crud like 'My first Spellbook' but that doesn't meet most people's definition of either 'occult' nor 'literature'.

Comicbook heroes are the new gods, the successors of the pantheons of old - and that's just the mainstream ones.
Besides, he could just have easily used any number of other comparisons, that's just shorthand for saying 'Atlantis creates the wrong image, because its too damn cheesy'.
Atlantis is the stuff of Daily Mail Sunday Supplement fair for old dears that spend their money on con-artists to contact their dead husbands.
Atlantis is the stuff of Von Danikenesque loonies.
Atlantis is the stuff of new-age crystalwaving, whalesong-listening people who never left the 60's.
Atlantis is the stuff of past life regression where everyone just happened to have been a noble.
Atlantis is the stuff of a pretty decent Disney Film.

It has its place for certain, in oMage as an artefact of belief created by the very loonies mentioned above. In RIFTS because they throw everything in all at once. In comic books and pulp novels.

It is NOT something that lends an appropriate air of seriousness or plausability to a game about the occult.
Atlantis evokes Timecube and all the rest of the cod mysticism and worst excesses of the poorly put together web page.

You mean the game expects you to play in a group? For shame!

Actually, with the focus so tight on 'personal' ascension and with such weak and uninspired enemies the motivation for forming a group seemed to be distinctly lacking. The atmosphere of it as written seemed to evoke the promotional method of The Unseen University (Kill the next guy and take his stuff in order to get to the top) rather than cooperation.

Somehow, I doubt you are backed by a silent multitude.

Entirely subjective and not a big enough sample to mean much I know but nobody I know is planning to play or has any excitement or interest in the new Mage outside of people linked with the LARP society - and that's mostly a sense of obligation and with (most of them) having a profound sense of disappointment in it.

I can't find the quote bit to put it here but the morality system was mentioned again. That's another flaw in all the games but most especially mage, linking someone's morality and a specific way of going about things with power - it also disadvantages your magely enemies. There really needs to be a patch for different moralities put in there somewhere.

 

[Funksaw]

And neither Awakening nor Ascension's magic systems resemble historical Hermeticism in the slightest. Neither does Ars' system. Historical Hermeticism is highly ritualized prayer that begins with the assumption that the Abrahamic God exists and has coded the universe with methods to forcibly compel intermediary beings into service.

You have this annoying habit of answering criticisms I'm not making.

Not only is "Realistic spellcasting" a contradiction in terms, but what the hell does this have to do with the price of tea?

They have different philosophies, initiatory practices and internal cultures. It's in the book.

So do Labour and the Tories, but they're not so different beasts that you'd need to create a splat for them.

Then you need to give the rules a more thorough reading, since the divisions between lesser and greater versions of the same practice are clearly spelled out. You may use a greater version of a practice at a higher Arcana rank.

Right, but I don't see a clear delineation between the levels, other than "this one allows you to cast these rotes" and "this one allows you to cast these, slightly cooler rotes"

If White Wolf wrote its books in consideration of comic books, you might have a point. But censoring yourself for the sake of Aquaman readers makes no creative or economic sense. The idea that Mage should pay more attention to DC Comics than occult literature is . . . amusing.

If only for the fact that you're more likely to see more Kirby than Crowley next to RPGs on the retail level, then I would say that taking them into consideration long enough to realize when something that's supposed to sound serious might sound silly in context, might make good economic sense.

They rely on building relationships -- possibly compromising ones -- with the knowledgable. The dodges for this are either tucked away or require sacrifice to use. In game terms, it's because magic is contained in the internal process of the spell -- the imago -- and not a simple description of how it works (which is why inscribing a grimoire isn't easy. See how it pays to read the book?). Mysteries do allow mages to get a better handle on the occult and teach themselves (just like I, as someone who's working on submission grappling in his spare time, likes to watch the odd fight vid -- but my time with a teacher is far, far better and without it, watching/reading would be useless).

Not arguing the point of "how magic works" so much as I'm arguing the point of "how mages organize." Magic can come from the great green arkleseizure for all I care, but the key criticism remains: Why would information about magic be precious and rare and mentors hard to find within the Consilium, when it is in the best interests of the many -- including and especially those with established power -- to make that information available as freely as possible.

You mean the game expects you to play in a group? For shame!

No, I mean the game forces you to play in a group, whether or not it makes any sense for the character or venue.

In fact, Ascension's politics were *worse*, as I pointed out before, with decrepit immortals backstabbing each other.

In Outer Space. Who mostly got killed or whatever in 3rd edition.

Awakening's chief form of competition has to do with forming a collective vision for a local society.

That makes criticism of splats more important - the "visions" of four of the splats are so small and insignificant that you can't believe a game is based around it.

But you don't game any more, do you? In fact, you stopped gaming before the Awakening even came out.

I sold off about half of my books via E-bay. But one of my co-workers at my new job is a relatively well-known game developer. I took it as a sign from the Gods that maybe I shouldn't give up this gaming thing just yet.

Buying books, however, I'm through with.

 

[eyebeams]

Aye, I'd agree there, but with a very different conclusion to you I think.

The difference happens to be that I'm actually talking about the game.

No, all of them were RIGHT.

No, they were wrong. Even in all caps.

Every god and spirit existed, subsisting on belief.

Directly contradicted in Ascension, where it's said that spirits prefigure belief, but are influenced by it as a "fashion." This is canon.

Spheres/Willworking was, basically, an agreed 'language' across the different traditions to give them a conceptual framework to work together. As someone progressed they needed their 'props' less but that can equally be taken as a measure of power and practice as well as knowledge.

This was only true in Mage Revised, ironically enough. Before that, pure will was objectively truer than other methods and foci were crutches.

The cosmological and metaphysical understanding in Mage could also be used to understand and explain every other supernatural force in the game within the framework of its belief which is something that helped cement the trend towards bringing the games together as one line.

Not really. The idea of a totally shared setting was popular in the mid-90s, but had been abandoned by the time The Chaos Factor was released. The less said about that, the better.

This was a large part of the problem that occured with Revised and the YoF and the sudden shifts that occurred contradicting everything previously established and breaking the metaphysical constants across the game (Particularly the Avatar Storm's inconsistent effects and Demon's metaphysical and historical precedence).

See, this is where your perspective shows through. You just used a LARP event acronym. And this is supposed to be divorced from your own issues again?

If related to anything much before Mage was rooted in the absolute base reduction of magical thought behind Chaos Magic.

No, it wasn't. Chaos Magic entered the design process for Awakening, though. Ascension was based on the conceit that the Pcs represented the ideal of Dynamic Quality as described by Robert Pirsig, and then it picked up a healthy dose of Starhawk before it hit any actual occult practices. Phil Brucato originally didn't want real occultism at all, then realized it was untenable.

As others have pointed out, perhaps more gently, Vampire and Werewolf seem to have addressed their previous criticisms by loosening up, becoming more free and less structured. Contradicting that Mage now has a much tighter focus and that in spite of the relatively restricting nature of Mage revised creating a huge split in the old Mage playing community.

No, Mage Revised caused arguments on the internet. That's different than an effect on the "community." But I'll put it this way. If Revised hadn't sold, the company wouldn't have bothered with that game's direction at all.

While Vampire and Werewolf retain strong thematic elements from their old incarnations and are recognisable (TBH I'd prefer it if both had gone a bit further in some ways) Mage does not. It no longer 'does its own thing' but covers ground amply and more ably covered by other games. The system and philosophy behind the oMage was its greatest strength to the people who fell in love with the old game and unlike the other new games there isn't a great deal for them here.

Awakening is similar in some ways and not so in others. It is not a simple yes/no thing.

Otherwise I'd say that your interpretation seems very much askance to that I have experienced in any playgroup either tabletop or LARP.

Mine just comes from the stuff that's actually in the books.

Then you're not seeing a lot of the rest that goes on here and your own reading comprehension is somewhat askew. Entirely seperately to my relationship with White Wolf (I can't comment on Funksaw as I don't know about it) I don't think much of the new games. The only valid criticism you can make of my criticism of the lines is that my Cam experience gives me a very different way of looking at things than your average tabletop player. In this case I actually think that that is an advantage, not a hindrance.

The Camarilla's ins, outs and play style have practically nothing to do with tabletop games. The drive to unity the tabletop and LARP experience is entirely LARP-driven. It doesn;t enter into tabletop design at all.

And you'll also find that any sanction was due to repeated public clashes with Achilli, who is now leaving White Wolf, a man whose flaming skills and insulting presence put the worst moments of either mine, or funksaws frustration and temper loss into the shade. Said sanction was also limited to one place and one where - unfortunately - partisan treatment of such things seems to depend very much on relative levels of hobby celebrity and very little on actions.

Nope. No grudge at all . . .

Other than that Pimp's only real crime was not being particularly funny, White Wolf's takeover of the Cam was hishandled horribly, the YoF was a brilliant idea - poorly executed (with particular reference to the Cam) and I have a major problem with two, now _former_ employees of the company who I regard as rude and petulant idiots who got away with far too much and seem to hate their 'fans'.

No grudge is the slightest, nope . . .

Not being quite so obsessed with regarding exclusion of my particular personal or cultural beliefs as an insult consider that all included when I talk about a lack of options or two tight a focus or one-true-wayism. I don't feel that it particularly skillfully matches up with those quoted 'isms particularly well either but I can see where the criticism comes from, I just subsume it into the greater criticism of being too 'tight' and 'small' - which was already a major criticism of revised, which in the light of awakening now looks extremely broad.

Revised was the only version of Mage that had the things you claimed to like about Mage, above. Earlier versions had what you dislike about Awakening.

If a page by page breakdown isn't analysis enough for you I don't know what is. The only purely emotive bad reactions I had to it were on Atlantis and the existence of the new Tremere - a word that brings a shudder to any long term WoD player. One is a central strut of the game, the other more easily ignorable.

See, Tremere is just a name to me. There's a light homage to the old Vampire and aside from that, nothing else.

PDFs are relatively cheap, especially with a weak US dollar, as new can sell at almost full price, some people like to keep a handle on the industry, some people were really waiting for Mage to see if they would buy into the whole nWoD deal as it was far and away their favourite game. I don't think that's so strange.

You hate the company and Funksaw doesn't even game any more. Both of you got it.

Given Mage sold second best to Vampire for the longest time and that most of the criticism and disappointment seems to be coming from former Mage players, while most of the support seems to be coming from non Mage players or those that deeply disliked aspects of what made the old Mage so good, I'd be worried.

You are confusing the internet with something that has statistical meaning.

 

[eyebeams]

That's fine if by 'Occult Literature' you mean cheap and nasty crud like 'My first Spellbook' but that doesn't meet most people's definition of either 'occult' nor 'literature'.

No. Your familiarity with occult literature is rather limited. Atlantis' association with the occult comes through the occult's connection to Neoplatonism, one of the dominant threads of Western esoteric belief. Atlantis was most famously described by Plato. Atlantis was the model for much writing about society, philosophy and mythology, from More's Utopia and Fracis Bacon's The New Atlantis to the Victorian occult revival that encompassed Blatavsky, Churchward and others. These were mirrored by similar stories about Mu and Lenuria. On a more sinister note, Atlantis was one of the root myths of Nazi occultism.

Comicbook heroes are the new gods, the successors of the pantheons of old - and that's just the mainstream ones.

Mage isn't about superheroes.

It has its place for certain, in oMage as an artefact of belief created by the very loonies mentioned above. In RIFTS because they throw everything in all at once. In comic books and pulp novels.

It is NOT something that lends an appropriate air of seriousness or plausability to a game about the occult.

You just don't know what you are speaking of. Sorry.

 

[eyebeams]

You have this annoying habit of answering criticisms I'm not making.

You have this habit of making inconsistent criticisms.

Not only is "Realistic spellcasting" a contradiction in terms, but what the hell does this have to do with the price of tea?

You can't run the game you're saying would be no problem, because Hermetic magic isn't supported in Ascension. If you can ignore this, you can just as readily ignore the same limitation in Awakening.

So do Labour and the Tories, but they're not so different beasts that you'd need to create a splat for them.

Actually, that's exactly what you would do in an RPG about national politics in the UK.

Right, but I don't see a clear delineation between the levels, other than "this one allows you to cast these rotes" and "this one allows you to cast these, slightly cooler rotes"

Check the spell table. It's indicated there. Other details can be found in rotes, but that was just as true of Ascension.

If only for the fact that you're more likely to see more Kirby than Crowley next to RPGs on the retail level, then I would say that taking them into consideration long enough to realize when something that's supposed to sound serious might sound silly in context, might make good economic sense.

Not really. Do you have any idea how badly comics sell?

Not arguing the point of "how magic works" so much as I'm arguing the point of "how mages organize." Magic can come from the great green arkleseizure for all I care, but the key criticism remains: Why would information about magic be precious and rare and mentors hard to find within the Consilium, when it is in the best interests of the many -- including and especially those with established power -- to make that information available as freely as possible.

And I have your answer. It has to do with how magic works even if you, personally don't want to hear about that. Airlines similarly have to organize around the physics of flight despite the fact that you, personally, might not care about that, either.

No, I mean the game forces you to play in a group, whether or not it makes any sense for the character or venue.

This is just silly. You're pining for the theoretical loner character who can't exist in most RPGs. And to top it off, you're saying that this exception to the way games are played must, in turn, abide by a social issue as if it was an ironclad rule. Apparently you can only stretch things to your level of dissatisfaction, eh?

In Outer Space. Who mostly got killed or whatever in 3rd edition.

That makes criticism of splats more important - the "visions" of four of the splats are so small and insignificant that you can't believe a game is based around it.

You keep saying this without actually referring to the splats in detail. Since you won't actually refer to the descriptions of them, your comments are not particularly useful eother way.

 

[Eridanis]

This is quickly devolving into "I'm right." "No, I'M right." Not the most fun thing to read.

Please cool off the tone of discussion, or the thread will be closed. Thank you.

 

[painandgreed]

No. Your familiarity with occult literature is rather limited. Atlantis' association with the occult comes through the occult's connection to Neoplatonism, one of the dominant threads of Western esoteric belief. Atlantis was most famously described by Plato. Atlantis was the model for much writing about society, philosophy and mythology, from More's Utopia and Fracis Bacon's The New Atlantis to the Victorian occult revival that encompassed Blatavsky, Churchward and others. These were mirrored by similar stories about Mu and Lenuria. On a more sinister note, Atlantis was one of the root myths of Nazi occultism.

You forgot Cayce! How could you forget Cayce?

Which is pretty much what he said as most of those authors have very little to do with contemporary occult reading. While Blavatsky and the others are known, they have pretty much been dropped by modern occult as science has dropped ether theory. The old Mage with it's willworkers and paradigm magick is much closer to Crowley's definition of magick and the recent works of Hine and Carrol. Victorian occult revival is pretty much forgotten and most treat the NAZIs as kooks going along with the original posters opinion that it falls more in line with "My First Spellbook" (published by Llywellyn, I'm sure). The mentioning of the Abyss and even the watchtowers are much closer to current occult theories than the inclusion of Atlantis and these are not in step with much more than Hermetic tradition which is the belief that magic is learned through knowledge. Belief that magic(k) comes from the standardized monoteistic god via prayer would be more kabbalistic. The kabbalah is a hermetic tradtion, but a hermetic tradtion does not have to be monotheistic. I doubt if many of my "wicca" (I use the term loosely) friends would see much of their magic in the current explanation let alone the ones that actually attempt at recreation of pre-Christian religions. Of course there is no standard list of texts on magic and each person's veiw is probably skewed as mine is due my association with the OTO and various chaos magicians.

It may be amusing that Mage brings up ideas of comics rather than the occult, but really, it is closer to comics than the occult. It is a game after all and that is to be expected. If I wanted to deal with real life philisophical issues, I have other resources for that.

Suffice to say the people disappointed with the new Mage are those that wished it to be a revision of the old Mage. I would say that might be "many" but not necessarily "most". in the end, like most games, sales will determine how the game is.

 

[King of Old School]

I'd argue against that. I particularly held this opinion for WoD games, because as soon as you determine the Truth, then it is only a matter of time before it is told to the players and the mystery of the setting is deflated.

Yeah, but I'm not sure how this contradicts anything I wrote. I'm not talking about definition versus non-definition of capital-T Truth; I'm talking about a world in which both A and Not-A are defined as the capital-T Truth. Put more clearly, you can't have a world where, say, Islam and classical Greek mythology are both (as Grimjim would have it) RIGHT. If "there is no god but God" then there's no room for Zeus and his squabbling family. Factor in every other system of religious and cosmological belief devised by man, and you have an untenable mess. The only solution is to say that any of them might contain some element of truth, but none of them have an absolute monopoly on the whole Truth.

Which, oddly enough, sounds more like Awakening than Ascension.

KoOS

 

[Shining Dragon]

Additionally, I don't like Atlantis. C'mon. You've got the tower of Babel myth staring you right in your face and you choose ATLANTIS? This is a totally subjective measure, but did you ever think that one conjures up images of ancient lore and hubris while the other one conjures up images of Aquaman fighting Black Manta?

I suspect that using the Tower of Babel would tie the game setting too closely to one religon.

There has already been criticisms that using Atlantis has tied the game to a Eurocentric setting - imagine what criticisms there would be if you tied the game to one religon?

 

[Michael Tree]

I suspect that using the Tower of Babel would tie the game setting too closely to one religon.

There has already been criticisms that using Atlantis has tied the game to a Eurocentric setting - imagine what criticisms there would be if you tied the game to one religon?

True. But imagine how interesting the game would have been if it were tied to Atlantis and Babel and several other destruction/arrogance myths in addition.