D&D 5E Mage: Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Artificers, Psions, oh my.

They did what exactly?



You are just being obtuse.

No he's having the same reaction to your commentary that I am having. I am not getting your objection either. What you think looks like the difference between fire and water, looks to me like the difference between cold water and lukewarm water. We really are trying to understand your objection, and failing.
 

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No he's having the same reaction to your commentary that I am having. I am not getting your objection either. What you think looks like the difference between fire and water, looks to me like the difference between cold water and lukewarm water. We really are trying to understand your objection, and failing.

If you are failing after reading my OP, that is your problem.
 

Duh?



See? You are being obtuse. If you read my post, you would know my main concern is the fact that five sub-classes with each having a number of additional sub-classes under them, all under a single class, will be bloated and complicated. The fact that a lot of these classes do not thematically fit is only an additional concern.

Wait, what sub-classes of sub-classes are you talking about? Looks like the main "Mage" class has sub-classes of sorceror, psion, warlock, maybe artificer? Those are all sub-class level, not sub-class of sub-class level.

I think all it means is each will have the same level progression chart for: hit points, spells/psionics, attack bonus, and feat/abilities. And then they will list specifics, like "access to these spells/psionics" and "access to these feats", and each will also have their own unique class abilities. I am not seeing why that is cumbersome, bloated, or complicated. It's streamlining progression charts, which I think makes things easier.
 


Duh?



See? You are being obtuse. If you read my post, you would know my main concern is the fact that five sub-classes with each having a number of additional sub-classes under them, all under a single class, will be bloated and complicated. The fact that a lot of these classes do not thematically fit is only an additional concern.

Re-read my post. The core classes received their own level progression and ability progression.

No, it's not being obtuse. It's boiling down your argument to its core. The essence of your argument from your previous posts is that you don't like these changes (that aren't really changes because they were almost identical in previous editions), therefore it isn't Dungeons and Dragons.
 

Wait, what sub-classes of sub-classes are you talking about? Looks like the main "Mage" class has sub-classes of sorceror, psion, warlock, maybe artificer? Those are all sub-class level, not sub-class of sub-class level.

The Wizard gets schools, the Sorcerer gets bloodlines, and the Warlock gets pacts.

I think all it means is each will have the same level progression chart for: hit points, spells/psionics, attack bonus, and feat/abilities. And then they will list specifics, like "access to these spells/psionics" and "access to these feats", and each will also have their own unique class abilities. I am not seeing why that is cumbersome, bloated, or complicated. It's streamlining progression charts, which I think makes things easier.

No, that is not what is happening. Each individual sub-class is getting a completely different spellcasting system. The Mage class shares the hit points, attack, Esoteric Knowledge, Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions, and the feat progression. The subclasses under that (Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Artificer, Psion) each provide a whole different spellcasting system with access to different spells. The subclasses under the Wizard, Warlock, etc, will provide the same thing other subclasses under other classes provide, a list of unique abilities.
 

The Wizard gets traditions, the Sorcerer, gets bloodlines, and the Warlock gets pacts.



No, that is not what is happening. Each individual sub-class is getting a completely different spellcasting system. The Mage class shares the hit points, attack, Esoteric Knowledge, Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions, and the feat progression. The subclasses under that (Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Artificer, Psion) each provide a whole different spellcasting system with access to different spells. The subclasses under the Wizard, Warlock, etc, will provide the same thing other subclasses under other classes provide, a list of unique abilities.

Those aren't sub-classes; those are options.

The Mage/Wizard is the actual core class. The Wizard will not be a sub-class, and neither will the specialist; those are still Mages. The Warlock, Sorcerer and Psion will be subclasses of the Mage.

Again, I'm failing to see how this is different than what it was in previous editions. The core class had its own progression, and the subclass had its own. Using the mage example, 1e illusionists had their own spell charts and level progression, but they were a sub-class of wizard.
 

Those aren't sub-classes; those are options.

The Mage/Wizard is the actual core class. The Wizard will not be a sub-class, and neither will the specialist; those are still Mages. The Warlock, Sorcerer and Psion will be subclasses of the Mage.

Again, I'm failing to see how this is different than what it was in previous editions. The core class had its own progression, and the subclass had its own. Using the mage example, 1e illusionists had their own spell charts and level progression, but they were a sub-class of wizard.

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 'Wizardry' under the Mage is what holds all of the Wizard's spellcasting system, including the Wizard's school subclasses. Wizardry will be replaced with 'Sorcery', 'Witchcraft', etc and each of those will have their own sub-classes.
 

You have absolutely no clue what you are talking about. 'Wizardry' under the Mage is what holds all of the Wizard's spellcasting system, including the Wizard's school subclasses. Wizardry will be replaced with 'Sorcery', 'Witchcraft', etc and each of those will have their own sub-classes.

Ok, so now the personal attacks. Whatever.

Is the two-weapon fighter a sub-class of the fighter? Or is it an option?

Traditions for Mages (the core class) are an option for the class, not a sub-class. Sorcerers will have their option of bloodlines, but the bloodlines are not subclasses. Warlocks will have their option of Witchcraft, etc.
 

The Wizard gets schools, the Sorcerer gets bloodlines, and the Warlock gets pacts.



No, that is not what is happening. Each individual sub-class is getting a completely different spellcasting system.

If my "system" you mean "fluff to describe how it is done, whether it needs certain components, what it looks like in the world, etc.." then yeah, but I don't see that as a big deal. But if you mean each one gets a different quantity and spell/psy level at each experience level, I disagree. I think they will be sharing the same chart for quantities, and what level of spell/psy they get at those experience levels.

The Mage class shares the hit points, attack, Esoteric Knowledge, Scribe Scrolls, Brew Potions, and the feat progression.

Yes, though I strongly suspect the final version will switch "scribe scroll, brew potion" to simply be "class ability" with a sub-class list of which ability they can get at that level. I know Mearls said they will get scribe scroll/brew potion in his off-the-cuff tweeted answer, but then he grants it might be wonky for some sub-classes (like sorcerer), and I am thinking that leads to simply a broader designation of "class ability" or "class sub-feat" or something on that line in the chart, and then each sub-class will list which ability/sub-feat it can get. So for example (off the top of my head) mage and warlock gets brew potion, while at that same level psion gets detect creature, warlock gets improved pact ability, etc..

The subclasses under that (Wizard, Warlock, Sorcerer, Artificer, Psion) each provide a whole different spellcasting system with access to different spells.

Yes. Though again, not sure what you mean by "system", other than mostly a fluff role playing explanation of how it is done and what it looks like, rather than a mechanical difference.

Nevertheless, this is how it's been done in almost all forms of D&D, each sub-class gets it's own spell access list.

The subclasses under the Wizard, Warlock, etc, will provide the same thing other subclasses under other classes provide, a list of unique abilities.

I see what you're saying, so illusionist, a sub-class of wizard, will have their own unique abilities and spell lists. I think that's right. They will tweak a minor number of abilities, and alter the spell access list. So instead of, say, brew potion, the illusionist might have silent spell. And instead of magic missile on their first level spell list, they might have minor image.

Which is pretty much how most editions of D&D did it, and I never found it cumbersome and difficult to work with. You have four base progression charts, then each of those has some major tweaks to how the base class does things, then specialties of those sub-classes have relatively minor tweaks to how the sub-class does things. It does streamline things pretty nicely, I find. Organizationally, it seems to make sense. And progression-wise, for hit points, quantity/level of spells/psys, ability score/feat bumps, levels of class abilities, armor access, that sort of thing, it makes sense as well.

Hey, at least (so far) this edition doesn't have four categories of saving throw charts to look up :)
 

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