D&D 5E Mage: Wizards, Sorcerers, Warlocks, Artificers, Psions, oh my.

Roles are not essential to the core of D&D at all. These 'roles' didn't exist until 4e.

So, the big, beefy fighter wasn't a role? Sure he was; he was the front line warrior set to protect the squishies behind him. Under the fighter "role" you had paladins, rangers, and barbarians. The cleric "role" was someone to heal and buff their companions. Under that "role" was the druid.

Roles have always been prevalent in D&D, in all editions. It wasn't until 4th edition that they tried to shoe-horn everyone into only the roles they were given.

I don't see 5e doing that.
 

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Why don't we do a bit of a reset here and see if we can drill down on where the real controversy is at.

Do we agree that it's OK if, under a broad "Mage" chart, all of Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Psion, and Artificer share the following level progression chart for these elements:

1. Initial armor proficiency
2. Initial weapon proficiency
3. Hit Die Used
4. Starting hit points
5. The level you get a new attack bonus
6. The levels you get a new ability score boost or feat
7. The levels you get a new class ability
8. The level when you learn a new spell, spell-like ability, or psionic ability
9. The quantity of spells, spell-like abilities, or psionic abilities you can "cast/use" at each level

Is that initial base progression chart something people object to in itself, provided that sub-classes and options/sub-sub-classes tweak what goes into each of those (like, for example, tweak what a class ability will be, what spell/psy/spell-like ability list you have access to, etc..)?

If not, which one(s) are bothersome, and why?
 
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...because I have been trying to avoid an outright edition war in my thread.


You failed that when you said, "That's not Dungeons and Dragons," back on the first page.

If you'd included "...for me", you probably would have been safe. But you didn't. Intentionally or not, you took the position of being arbiter of what is and is not D&D for everyone. In assuming an authority you don't possess, and that others will refuse to recognize, you have made yourself, and your position, into a target. Thus, the warring.

So, back off that absolutism, and you have a chance here. Otherwise... well, we can close the thread for you, if you prefer.
 
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So, the big, beefy fighter wasn't a role? Sure he was; he was the front line warrior set to protect the squishies behind him. Under the fighter "role" you had paladins, rangers, and barbarians. The cleric "role" was someone to heal and buff their companions. Under that "role" was the druid.

Roles have always been prevalent in D&D, in all editions. It wasn't until 4th edition that they tried to shoe-horn everyone into only the roles they were given.

I don't see 5e doing that.

No, the fighter wasn't. We barely even had positions throughout 1e and 2e. We didn't use a battlegrid. There was no way for him to stay in front to shield anyone. Enemies aren't mobs from an MMO where they stupidly attack someone shouting taunts at them while they get blasted by a caster. The cleric was up front spending more time bashing the faces of orcs with his mace than healing, except when that cleric had a bunch of offensive spells as was the case numerous times. It was the wizard's job to be smart enough to find a way to stay out of the way.
 

No, the fighter wasn't. We barely even had positions throughout 1e and 2e. We didn't use a battlegrid. There was no way for him to stay in front to shield anyone. Enemies aren't mobs from an AI where they stupidly attack someone shouting taunts at them while they get blasted by a caster. The cleric was up front spending more time bashing the faces of orcs with his mace than healing, except when that cleric had a bunch of offensive spells as was the case numerous times. It was the wizard's job to be smart enough to find a way to stay out of the way.

Yes, but barbarians, rangers, fighters and paladins were still considered part of the "Fighter" core class, correct? Druids and Clerics were part of the "Cleric" or "Healer" core class. Now, change out the word core class for role, and see if it changes. No, it's the exact same thing.

5e is not changing that. It is no different than it was in previous editions. That's what I've been getting at all along.
 

Roles are not essential to the core of D&D at all. These 'roles' didn't exist until 4e.

Roles did not explicitly exist, but they've implicitly existed in the design since the beginning. Roles are the reason for the "iconic four" (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue, or their cognates in various editions). Roles, as such, go well beyond D&D. Check out the Fantastic Four. Check out the Tvtropes article on the "Five Man Band". Roles are used in real-world combat. Roles are older than dirt.

What isn't in the core of the game is that it is absolutely necessary to have all the roles filled to have a good game experience.
 

What is this "mandatory Wizard training" you speak of?
All 3.x wizards needed to be trained in Knowledge arcana and spellcraft in order to work at all, sorcerers and warlocks didn't but could do so if they wanted, this was good because the academic flavor was only a possibility, but your sorcerer or warlock could come from anywhere and be developped as anything, no mandatory wizard college or studying on the dark tower. 4e stuck all arcane classes with mandatory Arcana training, this wasn't so bad because like I said it wasn't only academic knowledge, but also covered some minor forms of spellcasting, and it was still completely possible to avoid it by building as an hybrid. 5e so far has gone beyond mandatory knowledge on how magic works (Esoteric Knowledge) it also assumes every sorcerer and warlock has actually trained on wizard college or studied in the dark tower


Really? So, Basic D&D didn't have only 3 or 4 core classes that were relatively bland (Hello, I'm a fighter...I hit things). 1st edition didn't have a small core of classes? Were those D&D?

OD&D was three classes.

AD&D and BECMI was four. 2e was, mostly, as well.

4e was four "types" instead of four classes.

I'd say a majority of D&D versions used this concept of distilling all classes down to three or four classifications, and then spread out variants from there.

Why would a Psion need a different hit point, ability/feat, number of spell/psionic per level, and attack bonus than a mage or a sorcerer (I think armor will be listed for each sub-class btw, just like it was done for Cleric/Druid in earlier editions)? Similarly, why would a Paladin need a different progression on those factors from a fighter? Sub-classes worked just fine in older editions of D&D in this same manner.

I really think you're getting too caught up in titles, and assuming way to much about how things will function, all from a short tweet. You can have massive variation in how each sub-class operates, despite the primary class title. It's mostly a "how do we organize the book, balance things, and use a bit of short-hand to save space" type thing.

That's not entirely accurate. 2e also had sub-classes. Ranger and Paladin were sub-classes of Fighter. Druid was a sub-class of Cleric and Specialist Wizard's were sub-classes of Magic Users.

It was 3e that did away with the notion of sub-classes.

Mechanically, what is different between a 3e Wizard and a Sorcerer? They are virtually identical. The only real difference is in the memorization rules. They use identical spell lists and cast exactly the same way. Psionics have been done both as Vancian casting and spell points at various points in time in the game. These classes really aren't that different IMO.



This is a misconception, the original basic booklets only had three classes, but they quickly grow out beyond that number, by the very first supplement there were more than 6. Then when Basic itself came out it had seven classes, and first edition had eleven. So no, no edition of d&d has only had 4 classes. (Second edition had 4 CLASS GROUPS not Classes)

Sublcasses in 1st edition were pretty tame, they didn't limit anything, their main use was to recycle saving throw and to-hit charts which if I have to guess were cumbersome to print over and over, so it made sense to have only five of them. (And because they were on the DMG). Likewise second edition didn't have subclasses, just class groups, those shared only saving throw, Thaco and proficiency progressions, but each class had it's own features and xp table. and it is a big lie that paladins and rangers were subclasses of fighter, they all were full classes under the WARRIOR group, just like thieves and bards were under the ROUGE group, or Druids, clerics and specialty priests under the PRIEST group

3rd edition stopped using subclasses, because they had stopped meaning anything, the simplified to hit and saving throw progressions coupled with the universal xp chart made it possible for each class to have those numbers printed on their table, suddenly the only function they had was to stop similar classes from multiclassing with each other, so doing away with them was a good measure.

This isn't about being caught up with titles, but also comes from more pragmatic reasons, (like increased complexity, reduced customizability, hidnered flavor, reduced power -sorcerers and warlocks will be very weak if stuck on the same feat schedule as wizards-). It would be simpler if they just made sorcerers and warlocks their own classes with a feat progression tailored to cover their weaknesses (which the wizards don't share), features tailored to their flavor and the just use some keywords, or put a disclaimer saying that they can use all wizard magic items that work for them.

(And again 3.0 wizards and sorcerers weren't the same, not quite close, they didn't even played the same, beyond they casting the same spells -and this is a stretch, because sorcerers normally refrained from highly situational spells unless they focussed all other resources into mundane utility-, stop repeating it like some kind of mantra, they weren't even the same archetype)
 

Yes, but barbarians, rangers, fighters and paladins were still considered part of the "Fighter" core class, correct? Druids and Clerics were part of the "Cleric" or "Healer" core class. Now, change out the word core class for role, and see if it changes. No, it's the exact same thing.

5e is not changing that. It is no different than it was in previous editions. That's what I've been getting at all along.

I never once said subclasses are bad. Not freaking once. I don't have a long thread complaining that the Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, all have an array of subclasses. I do have a thread about the fact that the Mage not only has subclasses, but sub-subclasses. All thematically different, and with different spellcasting systems.
 

I never once said subclasses are bad. Not freaking once. I don't have a long thread complaining that the Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, all have an array of subclasses. I do have a thread about the fact that the Mage not only has subclasses, but sub-subclasses. All thematically different, and all with different spellcasting systems.

You are misinterpreting my comment. Please read it again.

I never once said that you said it, either. I said that those subclasses all fit under the fighter class. In this case, class is interchangeable with "role." Hence, the concept of roles, as Umbran described previously, has always been a core of D&D, from day 1.
 

You are misinterpreting my comment. Please read it again.

I never once said that you said it, either. I said that those subclasses all fit under the fighter class. In this case, class is interchangeable with "role." Hence, the concept of roles, as Umbran described previously, has always been a core of D&D, from day 1.

Class is not interchangeable with role. I've seen clerics made that have been completely centered around using his spells to buff his melee skills. Just as I've played a dual wielding fighter that was completely centered around getting weapon specialization, weapon mastery, etc to output as much damage as any other class.
 
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