Magic for sale?

[FrankTrollman]

I wonder if tripling the cost of magic item creation would curb it...

A system I've been working on is to drop monetary and XP costs for item creation and permanent spell altogether and to put an absolute limit on how many you can have outstanding at one time.

After all, while a Continual Flame is somewhat pricy - a Lantern Archon can make an unlimited number for free (and thus I can see no valid reason why there would be any sort of finite amount of them in the world - anyone with a 5th level spell slot can crank out continual flames by the hundreds of thousands). Rather than attempting to hold people to Ruby Dust, I find that putting an absolute limit of one per three caster levels (and if you want to make a new one you'll have to dismiss one of the older ones) works much better.

Something similar could be done with magic items - where people could have a level-dependent limit on how much total magic item they can produce out of any of their item creation feats. This would have the advantage of getting people to actually brew potions - as well as limiting the item creation to that which won't be ungamebalanced at your level.

Now, as to what rubric is actually fair - that's something I'm still working on. But the current Item Creation "cost" system is laughable - ways exist to extort cash from the multiverse and not going up in levels is advantageous in terms of level collection. As things currently stand, no matter how high you set the costs of item creation it will always be overpowered compared to gaining levels if you go far enough in the game - increasing the cost simply delays the level at which that will inevitably occur.

-Frank

 

[mmadsen]

No matter how rare you make magic items, they would still be treated as commodities.

A key aspect of commodification -- by the modern definition -- is that a commodity is interchangeable with any other product of the same type: grain is grain, porkbellies are porkbellies, +1 longswords are +1 longswords. The interchangeability that comes with commodification allows for all kinds of modern financial instruments (e.g., futures contracts) and helps produce a "low friction" economy.

Commodification is also the antithesis of "magic" -- there's no room for mystery.

The simple fact of economics is that things of value have commercial potential, no matter how special they are.

Certainly, but if each magical item is unique, then the market for magical items will resemble the market for, say, fine art, not the market for fine automobiles.

 

[Storm Raven]

Certainly, but if each magical item is unique, then the market for magical items will resemble the market for, say, fine art, not the market for fine automobiles.

And people still routinely buy and sell fine art. And commission the creation of new works of art.

 

[Arnwyn]

Absolutely not.

 

[Storm Raven]

After all, while a Continual Flame is somewhat pricy - a Lantern Archon can make an unlimited number for free (and thus I can see no valid reason why there would be any sort of finite amount of them in the world - anyone with a 5th level spell slot can crank out continual flames by the hundreds of thousands).

Note that having a summoned lantern archon make a continual flame is pretty much useless. The ongoing effects of any spell used by a summoned creature expire at the end of the summoning spell used to conjure it up. So their spell would simply wink out at the end of the duration of the summon monster spell.

You would need to use lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding to get a lantern archon who could create enduring continual flames, but you, as the DM, have control over the negotiations on those spells.

 

[FrankTrollman]

You would need to use lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding to get a lantern archon who could create enduring continual flames,

Precisely why it takes a 5th level slot.

It's a CR 1 creature who is totally good and probably has nothing better to do anyway. In one hour it can crank out 600 continual flames - so it will actually get back to its celestial tasks faster if it just agrees to light up your entire city than if it attempts to haggle.

-Frank

 

[Psion]

1) I don't buy the "characters of X levels with Y amount of items are more powerful than characters of X level" argument, because the baseline assumption of characters of a given level is that they will have a appropriate amount of items.

2) Chalk me up as one whose players won't spend a precious XP on magic.

3) My choice is somewhere between the 2nd and 3rd, though I put the second.

In my game, magic items are out there. To me, to have a world in which people have the means of making (or otherwise acquiring) a commodity and people willing to buy it and there not being a market for it quite simply shatters my suspension of disbeleif. Ergo, there is a magic item market.

That said, it's not as neat and nifty as ordering from Amazon.com's magic item store. Trade is mostly by barter; only low level items or single use items are typically considered for cash. Not all magic items are available; I randomly roll to see what is on a given town's market; if nobody has what you are looking for, then too bad. Finally, brokers take a large cut and trading magic items is like trading in a used bookstore -- you will be trading at a disadvantege.

Commisioning items is also a possibility, but such favors rarely come easily.

 

[jdavis]

What makes magic items hard to buy in my world is the populations, there are three large cities and one metropolis in the entire known world. That pretty effectively caps what they can find to a 15000 gp limit unless they want to travel for several months. I also control what they can and cannot find, we tend to roleplay out shopping and equiping so they have to literally go around asking about certain items, since the characters probably don't have a clue to the items name they have to go around searching for say "a item that will give me greater strength" or "a powerful magic sword". I hate it when they use the DMG like a menu, "I want one of these and one of these and two of those...", they have to look around and see what the town has to offer, if they don't have something then they just don't have it, even if it is in the towns gp limit. They can have it made or make it themselves but I rarely give them months worth of down time for this type of stuff (sometimes they commission stuff and then have to come back a adventure or two later to pick it up). Smiths are always backlogged, wizards are always busy, spell components are hard to find, you can't find a place to work....drag it out, make them role play out item creation or commissioning.

The problem I do have is not with them buying items but with them selling items, most magic staffs are worth more than a entire treasure trove of gems or art items. My group likes to liquidate everything, we start off at only giving 1/3 value for stuff (unless they get good diplomacy/bluff roles for barganing) and they still rake in way too much gold. Nobody tries to learn how to use a +2 scimitar, they just sell it. I started attching curses or evil effects to items just to stop them from stripping the dead and selling off everything. Most evil npcs and monsters with magic weapons have unholy or blasphemous items or have cursed requirements attached to them that make them useless for good characters. If I didn't do this the party will pick a enemy clean and get more for his equipment than the treasure he was guarding.

 

[Numion]

Yes.

I actually thought that the 3e Red Wizards in Forgotten Realms were a really good idea. WotC embraced the idea of creating magic items, and took it to its logical extension.

I can almost picture Szass Tam speaking to the other Zulkirs in a Citadel of Evil just like Number Two did in Austin Powers:

"If we shift our resources from evil and war to creation and commerce of magic items, we can increase our profits and influence five fold!"

"Du'h, why didn't we think of this like five destructive and lost wars ago?!?"

 

[Saeviomagy]

1) I don't buy the "characters of X levels with Y amount of items are more powerful than characters of X level" argument, because the baseline assumption of characters of a given level is that they will have a appropriate amount of items.

Which isn't what he said. What he said was "characters of X level with Y+Z magic items are more powerful than characters of X level with Y magic items". In other words - all other things being equal, the guy with more magic is in a better position. A character who crafts items for himself is in a BETTER position than the baseline.

2) Chalk me up as one whose players won't spend a precious XP on magic.

Don't think of it as spending. Think of it as lending.

Once the party get a level ahead of you, you start getting more XP than they do, and catch up. Then you're the same level, but with more cool stuff.