Magic for sale?
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Storm Raven
First Post
FrankTrollman said:
Assuming that a lantern archon thinks that way. Why exactly, do you assume that a celestial being would rationalize the use of its powers in this manner?
Storm Raven
First Post
Psion said:Indeed, as a lawful good creature, it might hesitate due to the proprietry of the situation, impact on the local economy, regulations, etc.
Further, I would point out that it is not just a lawful good creature, it is an idealized lawful good creature, more concerned with the precepts of its alignment than any practicalities. It should be concerned about the nature of the summoner, the intended use of its powers, the motivation for summoning it and so on. More so than with practicalities like "I want to go home quickly".
jasper
Rotten DM
A merchant shows up with a cart full of magic items--what do you want to buy? He's got it all." That rather takes the fun out of it.,…. But my early games were basically like that because we enjoyed being in the adventure whether in a giant’s fort or the underdark, than in some city.
IMC magic brokers exist and most items can be commissioned. Of course IMC I have a few cities with over 50K population, and a section on the map which says see Judges Guild maps.
Buying magic items just seems to me like it’s continuing the video game and power-ups trend D&D has become more afflicted with since 3E. Which I reply with a lot of games I sat in on in the early eighties did have magic shops or temples, or interdimensional shops run by crazy Merlin magic merchant who would appear in a clearing or in city just so we could buy and sell magic items. Of course the mage could toast the party by just taking his foot off the dead man button. Munchkin yep. Video game nope. After all pong then had 4 different games, and Atari and Intellivision were new.
Gothmog…It all depends on how you play the game…. I run a low-magic world… So you have never played a normal game of AD&D. Normal I mean by using any old AD&D modules which were magic heavy and loot heavy. In first edition you could randomly find MAJOR or should I say SUPER MAJOR artifacts(if they were in 3E) in the random treasure tables.
Buying means you lose flavor true but you lost flavor too if +1 flaming longsword just discovered in the trash pile with teeth treasure pile. That is if you survived the rot grubs. Of if commission from Elmer J Fudd Mageinare who owns a mansion and yacht that nice but some gamers just what their +1 flaming sword and could care less about how it got in their greedy hands.
IMC it depends on where you at. Either a strong feudal flavor to a modern type city flavor, of course these places are not next to each other. Think of as glowing candles of civilizations surrounded by dark borders. With a few trade arteries connecting most places. Take a wrong turn and enter a kingdom with a tax on magic items to places where all magic users and clerics must consort demons and need to be burned.
3E is a little more logic cause everyone and his maid can create magic items which matches the amount in the random treasure tables.
IMC magic brokers exist and most items can be commissioned. Of course IMC I have a few cities with over 50K population, and a section on the map which says see Judges Guild maps.
Buying magic items just seems to me like it’s continuing the video game and power-ups trend D&D has become more afflicted with since 3E. Which I reply with a lot of games I sat in on in the early eighties did have magic shops or temples, or interdimensional shops run by crazy Merlin magic merchant who would appear in a clearing or in city just so we could buy and sell magic items. Of course the mage could toast the party by just taking his foot off the dead man button. Munchkin yep. Video game nope. After all pong then had 4 different games, and Atari and Intellivision were new.
Gothmog…It all depends on how you play the game…. I run a low-magic world… So you have never played a normal game of AD&D. Normal I mean by using any old AD&D modules which were magic heavy and loot heavy. In first edition you could randomly find MAJOR or should I say SUPER MAJOR artifacts(if they were in 3E) in the random treasure tables.
Buying means you lose flavor true but you lost flavor too if +1 flaming longsword just discovered in the trash pile with teeth treasure pile. That is if you survived the rot grubs. Of if commission from Elmer J Fudd Mageinare who owns a mansion and yacht that nice but some gamers just what their +1 flaming sword and could care less about how it got in their greedy hands.
IMC it depends on where you at. Either a strong feudal flavor to a modern type city flavor, of course these places are not next to each other. Think of as glowing candles of civilizations surrounded by dark borders. With a few trade arteries connecting most places. Take a wrong turn and enter a kingdom with a tax on magic items to places where all magic users and clerics must consort demons and need to be burned.
3E is a little more logic cause everyone and his maid can create magic items which matches the amount in the random treasure tables.
Gothmog
First Post
jasper said:
Actually, I have played many, if not most of the old AD&D modules. Yeah, the hordes of magic and money were fun when I was a kid in my munchkin phase, but its simply boring to me now, and it makes no sense where all that loot came from. It a gaming style my group and I have moved past, thought it is perfectly valid if other groups enjoy it. My main complaint with 3E in this regard is that it is not only assumed, but REQUIRED that a certain level of magical availability is in the game to match the design specs andvancement rate, and CR ststem set by WotC. That isn't a strength of 3E, but a severe limitation and design flaw.
Quasqueton
First Post
I've played the various incarnations of (A)D&D for over 20 years. I have a large collection of the old/classic modules. The amount of magic items in the various modules are staggering. In all editions of (A)D&D, magic has never been wonderous and rare -- by the books. Some DMs (myself included) restricted and crossed out many magic items from the core material so that magic became wonderous and rare. But by the core "setting", they were pretty damn common.
I have seen character sheets with an extra page listing all the magic items the character has collected over a dozen levels. Multiple +1 swords, axes, and shields. Dozens of extra potions and scrolls. Etc. These items ended up stored in castles, banks, portable holes, etc. This was a natural by product of playing (A)D&D right out of the books.
I'm glad that the latest version of the game has accepted the "reality" of the core settings, and wrote in guidelines for creating and selling and buying magic items. It only makes sense.
I now allow the purchase and trade of magic items. There are no shops with magic items on shelves, but there are many brokers and contacts who can find an item, or can set up a commission for an item. A +1 sword is not all that amazing. It is just a specially-made tool.
As DM, I would rather "give" the PCs cash to spend on items they want and need, than to "give" them the magic items *I* want them to have. Let the character build up and develop as the Player wants and envisions -- not as the DM envisions.
But, I do have unusual items in my world that are wonderous and rare. Things made well before the current almost industrialization of magic, and found in ancient caches. Things that don't follow the construction patterns and rules. Things that even mages with the craft wonderous item feat are impressed with. That is where the PCs find awe and wonder with magic (in theory).
Quasqueton
I have seen character sheets with an extra page listing all the magic items the character has collected over a dozen levels. Multiple +1 swords, axes, and shields. Dozens of extra potions and scrolls. Etc. These items ended up stored in castles, banks, portable holes, etc. This was a natural by product of playing (A)D&D right out of the books.
I'm glad that the latest version of the game has accepted the "reality" of the core settings, and wrote in guidelines for creating and selling and buying magic items. It only makes sense.
I now allow the purchase and trade of magic items. There are no shops with magic items on shelves, but there are many brokers and contacts who can find an item, or can set up a commission for an item. A +1 sword is not all that amazing. It is just a specially-made tool.
As DM, I would rather "give" the PCs cash to spend on items they want and need, than to "give" them the magic items *I* want them to have. Let the character build up and develop as the Player wants and envisions -- not as the DM envisions.
But, I do have unusual items in my world that are wonderous and rare. Things made well before the current almost industrialization of magic, and found in ancient caches. Things that don't follow the construction patterns and rules. Things that even mages with the craft wonderous item feat are impressed with. That is where the PCs find awe and wonder with magic (in theory).
Quasqueton
Treebore
First Post
I rationalize the availability of magic much the same way as many previous posters, but here are some points I did not see in why I would allow a fair amount of magic to be up for sale.
The party is not the only ones in a campaign world capable of making magic items. This is something that has already been stated several times. IMO the vast majority of the "background" people would have plenty of time to make magic items for a living. Simply because they are not insane enough to "always" be adventuring. Plus, making magic items is pretty lucrative, and much safer than adventuring.
For churches, selling potions, scrolls, and other items is a great way to generate revenue maintaining their church, and maybe being able to afford to add on or build another church elsewhere someday.
So this is the general view i have of most camapign worlds, such as Greyahwk, Forgotten Realms, Scarred Lands, Oathbound, and Dungeonworld to name a few.
So the result on the game (at least ones I run) is that you can find potions or scrolls with relatively little effort, of minor power. Most magic items I decide on in a case by case basis, usually resulting in a percentage chance that a stock (in the DMG) item is available, until the items start being worth more than 15 to 20 thousand gold. Then I make it necessary to find someone capable of making the desired item and negotiate a contractr for making the item and then waiting the weeks or months for them to get around to, and actually make, the item contracted for.
Are there a lot of magic items in my campaigns? Yes, Does the party have a lot? Usually. Is it unbalancing? No, but it can be a major pain to keep it from becoming so. The main thing in my favor, as the DM, is that most offensive and some defensive magic items can only be used one at a time. So what if they carry around 4 wands, 2 rods, and 2 staves, 9 potions, 6 scrolls with 23 spells, a ring of djinni summoning, etc... They can only use one at a time.
Besides, when they really get encumbered with magic, they do occasionally fail saves against fireballs, etc... Or I can arrange for them to get caught in a no save is possible zone. Then I have them make saves for their magic items, and a "1" always fails, no matter how powerful the items enchantments or the caster level of the item maker. Mean? Yes. But it sure is effective at keeping the power level of the game under control. Which makes for a good long running campaign.
My favorite way to remove magic from a party is when they walk around town, alone. Rogues, anyone? Independent or guild affiliated will do. Just realize that the party may all of a sudden decide to declare war on the local Thieves Guild, even if one of their thieves didn't rob them. Guilt by association, you know.
I have even had wizards knock them unconcious/immobile with a lucky hold person or similiar spell. The cruelest one I ever did was when a character had a charm cast on him and he gave all his stuff to his "friend" who was in dire need (dire charm, anyone?) of said possessions to protect them and help them survive against these nasty enemies that were after her. She only needed them for a little while, and being that they were such very good friends, she would return them shortly. They never did find out who "he" was.
So a low level magic game is good, and is lots of fun. But a high level of magic is still very doable and fun too. Low magic games do have a lot fewer headaches and are easier to plan challenging encounters for, as well as are easier to maintain a game "balance", so the game doesn't "run away" from the DM's control, which is a must have for a successful and long-term campaign.
The party is not the only ones in a campaign world capable of making magic items. This is something that has already been stated several times. IMO the vast majority of the "background" people would have plenty of time to make magic items for a living. Simply because they are not insane enough to "always" be adventuring. Plus, making magic items is pretty lucrative, and much safer than adventuring.
For churches, selling potions, scrolls, and other items is a great way to generate revenue maintaining their church, and maybe being able to afford to add on or build another church elsewhere someday.
So this is the general view i have of most camapign worlds, such as Greyahwk, Forgotten Realms, Scarred Lands, Oathbound, and Dungeonworld to name a few.
So the result on the game (at least ones I run) is that you can find potions or scrolls with relatively little effort, of minor power. Most magic items I decide on in a case by case basis, usually resulting in a percentage chance that a stock (in the DMG) item is available, until the items start being worth more than 15 to 20 thousand gold. Then I make it necessary to find someone capable of making the desired item and negotiate a contractr for making the item and then waiting the weeks or months for them to get around to, and actually make, the item contracted for.
Are there a lot of magic items in my campaigns? Yes, Does the party have a lot? Usually. Is it unbalancing? No, but it can be a major pain to keep it from becoming so. The main thing in my favor, as the DM, is that most offensive and some defensive magic items can only be used one at a time. So what if they carry around 4 wands, 2 rods, and 2 staves, 9 potions, 6 scrolls with 23 spells, a ring of djinni summoning, etc... They can only use one at a time.
Besides, when they really get encumbered with magic, they do occasionally fail saves against fireballs, etc... Or I can arrange for them to get caught in a no save is possible zone. Then I have them make saves for their magic items, and a "1" always fails, no matter how powerful the items enchantments or the caster level of the item maker. Mean? Yes. But it sure is effective at keeping the power level of the game under control. Which makes for a good long running campaign.
My favorite way to remove magic from a party is when they walk around town, alone. Rogues, anyone? Independent or guild affiliated will do. Just realize that the party may all of a sudden decide to declare war on the local Thieves Guild, even if one of their thieves didn't rob them. Guilt by association, you know.
I have even had wizards knock them unconcious/immobile with a lucky hold person or similiar spell. The cruelest one I ever did was when a character had a charm cast on him and he gave all his stuff to his "friend" who was in dire need (dire charm, anyone?) of said possessions to protect them and help them survive against these nasty enemies that were after her. She only needed them for a little while, and being that they were such very good friends, she would return them shortly. They never did find out who "he" was.
So a low level magic game is good, and is lots of fun. But a high level of magic is still very doable and fun too. Low magic games do have a lot fewer headaches and are easier to plan challenging encounters for, as well as are easier to maintain a game "balance", so the game doesn't "run away" from the DM's control, which is a must have for a successful and long-term campaign.
jdavis
First Post
I had first edition characters who were over 5 pages long with stuff they accumulated, heck we had characters with artifacts back then, I don't see where D&D has ever been anything but a super high magical world at it's core, how could it not be when you had wizards and clerics casting magic as a every day occurance. It is just as easy to change now as it was then, just don't put the magic out there, it's not built into the design specs that deeply until high levels anyway (the only actual problem I see would be damage reduction for monsters and there have always been monsters that required a magic weapon to hit, that's nothing new.) I started out the current group as prisoners in rags at 5th level and had them fight their way back to the city, they had no problems not having magic items, heck they were happy to have any items at all (nothing like a wizard with no spell book armed with a chairleg). Them not having the required items for ther level didn't cause the game to break or not work, heck even now (average party level 11) they still don't have all that much stuff. Like I said before my problem isn't them having too much magic it's them selling everything off.Gothmog said:
I don't know of anywhere in any book where it actually requires you to have magic items to play the game at a certain level, yes the higher level you get the more they help out but the game doesn't stop working in a low magic setting, heck if you dropped magical damage reduction from monsters then you've done all the house rules you need to do to make a high level no magic item world work just fine.
Pants
First Post
I allow the purchase and creation of magic items in my games.
In my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game, the PC's took a trip to Verbobonc and I said, "The city has a gp limit of 40,000. Have fun." However, for items like potions and scrolls, I rolled randomly to see how many the temple and shop had available.
In my other campaign, most large cities are going to have a couple of shops that have a variety of low priced items, a +1 weapon, a ring of jump, or other stuff. Occasionally, a +2 weapon might be found, but a +3 would be pushing it, and there will NEVER be a +4 weapon available for sale. Ever. Low cost potions and scrolls up to 6th level would be easy to come by, but at 7th and up, even scrolls start getting costly.
My players don't make magic items, the wizard in the party hates the XP that he loses so he does it only rarely. However, they can commision them to be made. A +1 weapon is made straight out of the book, but for +3's and up, a special 'material' will usually be needed. Once, the party rogue decided that he wanted his +1 ghost touch dagger to be upped to a +1 ghost touch, undead bane dagger, so they had to find a way to get some 'essence of an incorporeal undead.' They had the option of heading to the Ethereal and killing a Ghost there or tracking someone down who had possession of it.
I'm not a big fan of the whole, 'magic is so mysterious that my 13th level fighter only has Masterwork Full Plate and a +1 Longsword.' It doesn't make any sense in a world with spellcasters and it kinda ruins the fun of the game.
In my Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil game, the PC's took a trip to Verbobonc and I said, "The city has a gp limit of 40,000. Have fun." However, for items like potions and scrolls, I rolled randomly to see how many the temple and shop had available.
In my other campaign, most large cities are going to have a couple of shops that have a variety of low priced items, a +1 weapon, a ring of jump, or other stuff. Occasionally, a +2 weapon might be found, but a +3 would be pushing it, and there will NEVER be a +4 weapon available for sale. Ever. Low cost potions and scrolls up to 6th level would be easy to come by, but at 7th and up, even scrolls start getting costly.
My players don't make magic items, the wizard in the party hates the XP that he loses so he does it only rarely. However, they can commision them to be made. A +1 weapon is made straight out of the book, but for +3's and up, a special 'material' will usually be needed. Once, the party rogue decided that he wanted his +1 ghost touch dagger to be upped to a +1 ghost touch, undead bane dagger, so they had to find a way to get some 'essence of an incorporeal undead.' They had the option of heading to the Ethereal and killing a Ghost there or tracking someone down who had possession of it.
I'm not a big fan of the whole, 'magic is so mysterious that my 13th level fighter only has Masterwork Full Plate and a +1 Longsword.' It doesn't make any sense in a world with spellcasters and it kinda ruins the fun of the game.
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