D&D 5E Magic Initiate Feat Debate!

[SuperZero]

I think it's up to debate with your DM if you can take more than one instance of this feat, that's why they didn't specify that you can, as they did for elemental adept, nor they prevented you to do so by specifying you couldn't.

They did specify that you can't, though. That's part of the general rules for Feats, so those that specify that you can are the exception.

You can take each feat only once, unless the feat's description says otherwise.

Edit: Ah, I waited until I had my book handy to look up the reference/make sure I wasn't misremembering something from earlier editions before I actually made the post, and I see I was quite soundly beaten to the punch.

 

[juggerulez]

They did specify that you can't, though. That's part of the general rules for Feats, so those that specify that you can are the exception.
Edit: Ah, I waited until I had my book handy to look up the reference/make sure I wasn't misremembering something from earlier editions before I actually made the post, and I see I was quite soundly beaten to the punch.

No, the feat section clearly states that a feat cannot be taken more than once unless it otherwise says so.

oops, you're right forgot to do my homeworks there ^^'

I personally as DM wouldn't allow the butt-end attack with a quarterstaff used in one-hand, but I realize there's nothing against it in the rules. But if someone wants to spend two feats on that combo, fine.

why not? can't you strike with the pommel of a 1handed weapon? yes you can, so why shouldn't you be able to do so with a 1handed quarterstaff?
Pommel striking with any other 1hander is treated as an improvised weapon, which deals 1d4 damage. The feat, in regard of polearms, allows you to do so as a bonus action, I don't see why you should wrinkle your nose up to this one ^^

You're not spending 2 feats for the sole purpose to do this combo. Magic initiate helps you in 3 aspects of the game rather than just one like many other feats could do (e.g. sentinel would push you down the field control one). I wasn't even looking at MI when I've first chosen polearm master, I was going for Sentinel! Then I've changed mind when I found myself very strong on the battle control and very weak in all other compartments and then replaced it with a "wider" feat
Shillelagh is just an extra 1 damage per swing (3.5 for a d6, 4.5 for a d8) but it's magic damage, which bypasses standard damage resistance (which apparently most of our foes have, these past encounters -.- )
Honestly the whole spell slot thing was just greediness. ^^'

Goodberry abuse can be done with a druid or druid multi-class and so isn't specifically a problem with this feat.

druids aren't good first liners with my DM (FYI I'm a druid right now) and I'm not making the cut. Everything was just fine up to level 4th, now I simply can't keep up with the pressure. Druids are stuck with only 2 shapeshifts per short rest and are not efficient first liners as humans (i'm topping a respectable 18ac and i'm getting my ass handed to myself more often than not) and since we can't short rest more than twice per day (DM ruling) I can't keep up with the 5-8 encounters per short rest pace our DM expects us to keep. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, perhaps he's pushing too much, I can't say, but our sorcerer and monk seem to be fine with it, so apparently it's my issue, not theirs :|

 

[pdegan2814]

druids aren't good first liners with my DM (FYI I'm a druid right now) and I'm not making the cut. Everything was just fine up to level 4th, now I simply can't keep up with the pressure. Druids are stuck with only 2 shapeshifts per short rest and are not efficient first liners as humans (i'm topping a respectable 18ac and i'm getting my ass handed to myself more often than not) and since we can't short rest more than twice per day (DM ruling) I can't keep up with the 5-8 encounters per short rest pace our DM expects us to keep. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, perhaps he's pushing too much, I can't say, but our sorcerer and monk seem to be fine with it, so apparently it's my issue, not theirs :|

5-8 encounters PER short rest, and potentially 3 shifts like that per long rest? That's INSANE! What's your DM trying to do, set a world record for shortest number of game days to get characters to Level 20? I can't think of any caster class that could keep up with that pace. Warlock, MAYBE, since at least their few spell slots recharge with each short rest and they can rely on Eldritch Blast as a cantrip for most of their damage-dealing. But seriously, if I was an adventurer in your DM's world, I would have packed it in and gone back to working on the farm a loooong time ago.

 

[juggerulez]

5-8 encounters PER short rest, and potentially 3 shifts like that per long rest? That's INSANE! What's your DM trying to do, set a world record for shortest number of game days to get characters to Level 20? I can't think of any caster class that could keep up with that pace. Warlock, MAYBE, since at least their few spell slots recharge with each short rest and they can rely on Eldritch Blast as a cantrip for most of their damage-dealing. But seriously, if I was an adventurer in your DM's world, I would have packed it in and gone back to working on the farm a loooong time ago.

so you can FEEL my pain! I honestly think a druid can't keep up with this as a first liner, perhaps a warrior or a paladin, but certainly not a druid that relies on shapes to pull her weight...
what he doesn't realize is that by placing random encounters checks hourly, there is a very good chance that an encounter pops up, even if these encounters are subpar to our party! we're all level 4, the random encounters he usually spawns swing between CR 2 and CR 4, but the smaller the CR is, the higher the number of foes is, so I often find myself being targeted by 3-12 enemies, which all roll a d20+hit and by the law of large numbers, getting nailed is not even that remote of a chance. I'm popping 70 berries while in downtime, I'm usually dry by the second short rest (which means, mind you, that there are at least 5-8 encounters ahead of us before the LR) and don't get me started about when we LR during a quest... luckly enough it happened only once but I was really afraid that time xD

Btw we're not leveling that fast either, what do you mean? The druid was created the 10th of May and we're playing about 2-3 times per month, so we're level 4th after about 14 sessions, is that fast?
DM said that this pace is to be expected in 5e and to "suck up" :v

 

[pdegan2814]

so you can FEEL my pain! I honestly think a druid can keep up with this as a first liner, perhaps a warrior or a paladin, but certainly not a druid that relies on shapes to pull her weight...
what he doesn't realize is that by placing random encounters checks hourly, there is a very good chance that an encounter pops up. The fact that these encounters are subpar to our party: we're all level 4, the random encounters he usually spawns swing between 2 and 4th CR, but the lesser the CR is, the higher the number of foes is, so I often find myself being targeted by 3-12 enemies, which all roll a d20+hit and by the law of large numbers, getting nailed is not even that remote of a chance. I'm popping 70 berries while in downtime, I'm usually dry by the second short rest (which means, mind you, that there are at least 5-8 encounters ahead of us before the LR) and don't get me started about when we LR during a quest... luckly enough it happened only once but I was really afraid that time xD

Btw we're not leveling that fast either, what do you mean? The druid was created the 10th of May and we're playing about 2-3 times per month, so we're level 4th after about 14 sessions, is that fast?
DM said that this pace is to be expected in 5e and to "suck up" :v

What I mean is, if you're facing that many monsters per day, you should be racking up XP at a faster than average pace, with regard to in-game time. As for your DM's comments that this pace is "expected" in 5th and to suck it up, that's bull. The pace is what the DM decides the pace is going to be. The DMG lists some recommendations for the average number of encounters & short rests a party can expect to deal with per day, but they're by no means mandatory. The game even provides suggestions for variant rules regarding rests which allow for different paces & styles of play. If the DM is blaming the rules for the pace of the game he's either reading them wrong or he's trying to duck responsibility for his own choices.

Honestly, I doubt I'd enjoy playing in a game like yours. It feels less like a role-playing game and more like an arcade game. With that many battles a day, are there ever any non-combat encounters going on? Do you ever deal with social situations? Investigate mysteries in villages, persuade local officials to offer assistance, bribe shady characters for information, that sort of thing?

 

[juggerulez]

What I mean is, if you're facing that many monsters per day, you should be racking up XP at a faster than average pace, with regard to in-game time. As for your DM's comments that this pace is "expected" in 5th and to suck it up, that's bull. The pace is what the DM decides the pace is going to be. The DMG lists some recommendations for the average number of encounters & short rests a party can expect to deal with per day, but they're by no means mandatory. The game even provides suggestions for variant rules regarding rests which allow for different paces & styles of play. If the DM is blaming the rules for the pace of the game he's either reading them wrong or he's trying to duck responsibility for his own choices.

Mind you that nobody else is complaining but me Noone called for shenanigans or cruelty toward players! The sorcerer and monk are fine with the pace, and I'm assuming they do because there is a poor bastard druid that gets all the hatred, that's why xD

We all agreed he'd roll for random encounters hourly but treasure for quests and "fixed" encounters' would be sorted randomly between wished items and flavour items, i.e. you create a wishlist of 3 common items, which means 9 in total (there are 3 of us), the remaining slots are filled with "junk", usually temporary items like potions, balms, alchemy jugs filled with maionnaise (you have NO idea of how much we wished him to touch cloth the day after xD ) but as soon as all 9 items will be drawn, we'll clean the slate and start with a new one, probably with rare items as well since we're approaching level 5th
There is a 4th member of our party which is a NPC that helps us a bit with the healing (prior to him we had another bard NPC but she couldn't keep up with my mending).

Honestly, I doubt I'd enjoy playing in a game like yours. It feels less like a role-playing game and more like an arcade game. With that many battles a day, are there ever any non-combat encounters going on? Do you ever deal with social situations? Investigate mysteries in villages, persuade local officials to offer assistance, bribe shady characters for information, that sort of thing?

We do a lot of "downtime" play between "adventures". Usually city play, where you end up doing mostly social encounters (i.e. like "monster encounters" but that you have to solve with your brains as a player and with your skillset as a character) but since we're all part of a militia, we often are ordered to leave the city to solve mysteries or to report in an outer village that requested militia's assistance.

The 5-8 encounters, though, are both "social" and "monster" type, but it's hard to come by a social encounter amidst a dungeon, that's why I'm having such an issue.

 

[Kalshane]

oops, you're right forgot to do my homeworks there ^^'



why not? can't you strike with the pommel of a 1handed weapon? yes you can, so why shouldn't you be able to do so with a 1handed quarterstaff?
Pommel striking with any other 1hander is treated as an improvised weapon, which deals 1d4 damage. The feat, in regard of polearms, allows you to do so as a bonus action, I don't see why you should wrinkle your nose up to this one ^^

Because I have enough issues with someone (despite RAW) using a 6' staff in one hand. (While there are one-handed staff techniques, they're generally limited compared to two-handed ones). Allowing them to essentially twirl it like a baton in one hand in order to strike with both ends just comes across as ridiculous. That pommel strike with a sword works because you have a lot of weight condensed into a small area right next to the wielder's hand. The weight of a staff is evenly distributed, requiring a lot more work to get power behind the blow.

(To be clear, I do allow single-handed staff wielding. I just don't let people pair it with Polearm Master for the butt-end attack.)

 

[Z. H. Darkstar]

"Social" encounters in a dungeon should translate to puzzle rooms. Even combat encounters can have a degree of puzzle elements to their nature.

For example: Two weeks ago, my AL table running OotA yielded an interesting random encounter roll while being chased by the Drow. They encountered the Rocktopus in a gas leak chamber. They fire bolted the gas, killing the Rocktopus and creating a delay for the Drow at the same time.

I would ask your DM to add some puzzles to both the social and combat encounters as a way of taxing your resources differently without changing up the rest mechanic. Creating a combat where world interaction can allow for a OHKO through creative means is more rewarding to the players, as they realize there are others means of success other than repetition of attacks. Put an open cask of wine in an encounter with a pair of drunken trolls, that way an ingenius PC can spill it on the ground the trolls stand on and set it ablaze for 1d3 rounds. Set a fight against a powerful undead enemy in a church with small basins of holy water placed around the room, so that they can be used by those without the means of bypassing enemy resistance. A good DM would include these elements within the description of the encounter to acknowledge their existence, but not give away their purpose for being there.

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

It seems the rules as written state that the feat grants you one first level spell, which you can cast once per day. In addition, you can also use spell slots provided by your class to cast it. But you can't use that once-per-day casting to do anything else. I suspect the intention, though, is that it grants you a first level spell and a first level spell slot, equal to any other spell slot gained from classes, and that's how I will run it.

 

[juggerulez]

Because I have enough issues with someone (despite RAW) using a 6' staff in one hand. (While there are one-handed staff techniques, they're generally limited compared to two-handed ones). Allowing them to essentially twirl it like a baton in one hand in order to strike with both ends just comes across as ridiculous. That pommel strike with a sword works because you have a lot of weight condensed into a small area right next to the wielder's hand. The weight of a staff is evenly distributed, requiring a lot more work to get power behind the blow.
(To be clear, I do allow single-handed staff wielding. I just don't let people pair it with Polearm Master for the butt-end attack.)

Spartans and Grecian Oplites would beg to differ :v
well they were using spears, which are just tipped staves and perhaps quarterstaffs are unbalanced to the point that they weigh more on the ends to exploit kinetic force, but nothing prevents you to use the tip of the staff to "cave in" someone's stern while supporting/sliding the far end onto your shield, then simply rise the staff (that you're now holding at the other end or close by) and "pommel" strike someone in close quarters. A staff weights only 4 lbs, which is the same of most "non light" 1h weapons, so I really can't see why you should make an exception. Out of curiosity, did you counter balance the nerf in any way? did you gave it reach then? it's still sub par to other polearms but at least it isn't completely useless

anyhow it's your session, if it's cool with your players, nobody here can question your authority

"Social" encounters in a dungeon should translate to puzzle rooms. Even combat encounters can have a degree of puzzle elements to their nature.

For example: Two weeks ago, my AL table running OotA yielded an interesting random encounter roll while being chased by the Drow. They encountered the Rocktopus in a gas leak chamber. They fire bolted the gas, killing the Rocktopus and creating a delay for the Drow at the same time.

I would ask your DM to add some puzzles to both the social and combat encounters as a way of taxing your resources differently without changing up the rest mechanic. Creating a combat where world interaction can allow for a OHKO through creative means is more rewarding to the players, as they realize there are others means of success other than repetition of attacks. Put an open cask of wine in an encounter with a pair of drunken trolls, that way an ingenius PC can spill it on the ground the trolls stand on and set it ablaze for 1d3 rounds. Set a fight against a powerful undead enemy in a church with small basins of holy water placed around the room, so that they can be used by those without the means of bypassing enemy resistance. A good DM would include these elements within the description of the encounter to acknowledge their existence, but not give away their purpose for being there.

This is a good idea. perhaps we just need to go farther in to get to the traps (we yet have to find one now that you mention puzzles) but until now, anything we did was smashing through a plethora of hostiles with little to no chance of dialogue.

still, I'll ask my DM if he plans to indulge us with some "social" encounters as well

It seems the rules as written state that the feat grants you one first level spell, which you can cast once per day. In addition, you can also use spell slots provided by your class to cast it. But you can't use that once-per-day casting to do anything else. I suspect the intention, though, is that it grants you a first level spell and a first level spell slot, equal to any other spell slot gained from classes, and that's how I will run it.

We already established that it's a stretch. Mine was just greediness ^^
I really wanted an extra divine smite to push a crit to good bye land, but it was simple too much to pretend