D&D 5E Magic Item Creation: Which book should contain rules for magic item creation?

[ExploderWizard]

I find the sentiment amusing that putting it in the DMG will somehow keep those rules out of players hands...

Why would that be the case? Players get interested in running games too, so it is not unreasonable to expect them to read the DMG. They should do so with the understanding that whatever they find there may or may not be used in whole or in part by any particular DM.

It's not a question of the rules not being available to the players or known by the players. It's a question of making it clear that magic item creation - how it's done, what's required, whether it can happen in-campaign, etc - is within the DM's sphere of influence. Players should expect that the DM will have something to say about the topic.

This should be assumed of any material written for DMs.

Supplementary question: in a magical world, what sets "magic" apart from "not magic"? Does it have some sort of special designer label? That might explain a lot...

In the traditional D&D multiverse, whatever cannot be explained or accomplished via mundane means is magic. If magic gets replaced by generic superpowers of varying flavors then the waters become murkier, S&S becomes supers, and magic as such does merely become a designer label.

I don't see that it makes much sense to reward the character either. But as far as the player is concerned, unless you're playing a very particular sort of style in which players determine their own challenges (eg Gygaxian megadungeon), than the "reward" for finding a magic item is making the game easier, which often equates to making it less interesting. Not much of a reward, in my book!

From a characters POV, magic items don't make "the game easier", they increase the odds of survival. Wanting to survive dangerous undertakings makes perfect sense to me. There may be lunatic thrill junkies who thrive on greater chances of death, but the typical adventurer if asked, probably wouldn't say they preferred a higher risk of death because it was more interesting. What sane person would?

 

[ForeverSlayer]

The more threads I read across different websites, the more I come to the conclusion that a good many people would be better off playing boardgames.

 

[howandwhy99]

I don't understand - what are PC magic-users (wizards)? Are they "honorary DMs", or do they just have no idea what they are doing?

Supplementary question: in a magical world, what sets "magic" apart from "not magic"? Does it have some sort of special designer label? That might explain a lot...

(that should have been -item- construction)

Magic-User PCs are learning all about magic just as their players are learning the magic system. Just like every other class. The more we study and play any game the more we learn about them too. And no one should begin a game with no understanding. We may know all the ways pieces move in a Chess game, but that doesn't make us experts at playing the game.

What is magic and what isn't is part of the exploration of the M-U PCs, player and character.

 

[Mistwell]

Hey, if you like +2 swords as a reward, I have an imaginary bridge I could sell you really cheap!

Are you implying people who like that as a reward are gullible because they like different things than you?

 

[Mistwell]

The more threads I read across different websites, the more I come to the conclusion that a good many people would be better off playing boardgames.

How so?

 

[Kinak]

I feel like, once you include rules for creating items, they stop being treasure and start being a method of character customization.

Now, I can pretend magical item creation rules don't exist (like I do running Pathfinder), but I'd much rather just start with a blank slate than having to replace an existing ruleset I don't like.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[sheadunne]

You go to work each day, and you receive rewards for that (a paycheck) right? You figure our fictional characters will (or even could) continue in their fictional world if they were never given rewards for actions taken? How, pray tell, do they buy food to eat? So, you must, occasionally, reward the character, or they will starve (unless your game happens to have no rules requiring that characters eat, I suppose...) .

In general, in the fiction - only severely disturbed individuals continue on in pain, strife and risk to life and limb without *some* reward. Suitable rewards will differ, of course. But, if they never get anything for their efforts, they will eventually stop making an effort. That leads to a boring game.

From there, it is just a bit of human psychology - the character is the player's self-insertion icon. Rewarding the character is rewarding the player, by extension.

My paycheck is not a reward. It's a contractual agreement between two parties. A reward would be more similar to an end of the year bonus or some such thing. Unexpected but appreciated, with no obligation on the part of the employer to provide it.

Adventurers do not have a contractual agreement with anyone (unless that's the nature of their adventuring) but rather hope that their investment pays off with some profit. Adventuring is probably a pretty bad life style choice if you want to put food on the table. It's quite possible that your choice of adventuring locations might net you zero profit. Much better to be a blacksmith or tanner.

However, aside from cash or goods to sell and make a profit, items that improve the character's adventuring life style are probably not the primary purpose of adventuring. You can't eat a +1 sword (unless you sell it). They're probably more similar to professional development in the workplace. The employer provides reimbursement for education that improves your ability to work better and more efficiently, thus making it easier to do your job.

Anyway, I think it's more a matter of campaign choice and character background that determines what the nature of the adventuring is. A holy quest to recapture of lost blah blah, is a much different adventure than one where the characters are looting a dungeon for cooper pieces.

Regarding the question at hand, I like magic item creation rules and I'm glad that 3x introduced some concrete (if not done well) rules for item creation. I think 5e would be poorer without them. I prefer the 3x model (although moving potions and scrolls into the PHB) and reworking the item creation feats to be more abstract in cost and application, rather than fixed on GP and XP amounts.

 

[sheadunne]

I feel like, once you include rules for creating items, they stop being treasure and start being a method of character customization.

Now, I can pretend magical item creation rules don't exist (like I do running Pathfinder), but I'd much rather just start with a blank slate than having to replace an existing ruleset I don't like.

Cheers!
Kinak

Even back in 1e I used magic items for character customization. I have always been inspired and continue to build characters around magic items. Limiting their access would only stifle my creativity.

While I dislike the rules themselves for PF item creation, I take the opposite approach and make them 110% available for players, practically forcing them to take item creation feats and establishing means of buying and selling their items. This isn't because I love the rules, but because I love the option of customizing a character through the use of magic items. If feats could imitate what magic items do, I'd probably not care so much.

 

[LostSoul]

*: I have to say I'm totally unconvinced, these days, about "magic items as rewards". Rewards for whom? The character? Why should the character be specifically rewarded, exactly? For the player? What kind of a warped "reward" is having an imaginary thing that you can't take out of the game? Is it supposed to be some sort of "Badge of 1337ness" to have a character who has a +2 sword, or something? Good grief.

In a certain style of play - challenge-based player-driven play - they are rewards for the player. Imagine a trick where there's a flame tongue floating in a glowing ray of light in the middle of a room (with a bunch of clues as to how to get it and what the consequences of screwing up might be). You know there's going to be some danger in there, so you have to figure out how to grab the thing.

If you get it, then your PC has capabilities that you otherwise wouldn't have. You could always just pass it by, though. But what a rush if you can get it! Now that you have it - what are you going to do with it?

From a characters POV, magic items don't make "the game easier", they increase the odds of survival. Wanting to survive dangerous undertakings makes perfect sense to me. There may be lunatic thrill junkies who thrive on greater chances of death, but the typical adventurer if asked, probably wouldn't say they preferred a higher risk of death because it was more interesting. What sane person would?

I think this ties into player-driven games. If the DM is determining the challenge or risk that you face, yes, things are easier and potentially less interesting. If you are able to grab that flame tongue in a player-driven game, though, maybe you think you can now sally forth into the troll marshes and set yourself up as their new god-on-earth.

I think these rewards are for smart play - you can now punch above your weight - so you take on more dangerous and interesting challenges; which lead to more rewards, which open up even more interesting places for you to adventure, etc. etc. It's a nice reward cycle - and to be clear, the real reward isn't the flame tongue or vorpal weapon or crystal ball - it's the adventures that those magic items allow you to get into; more interesting adventures that you wouldn't be involved in if you weren't such a good player.

(Which is also the point of levels and GP for XP, now that I think about it.)

 

[pemerton]

You go to work each day, and you receive rewards for that (a paycheck) right? You figure our fictional characters will (or even could) continue in their fictional world if they were never given rewards for actions taken? How, pray tell, do they buy food to eat? So, you must, occasionally, reward the character, or they will starve

Just adding to [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION]'s response: magic items aren't currency for buying food. They're power-ups.

From a characters POV, magic items don't make "the game easier", they increase the odds of survival. Wanting to survive dangerous undertakings makes perfect sense to me.

Of course. But by the same token, the typical rational character would retire after looting a 10,000 gp hoard, rather than continue risking death.

But unless you're into extreme world-and-life-simulation, that doesn't make for a particularly fun game. I think the game should be designed to support play by real players in the real world, not to produce a simulation of a rewarding life for imaginary people in an imaginary world.

The more threads I read across different websites, the more I come to the conclusion that a good many people would be better off playing boardgames.

Which people do you have in mind? And why? I know you don't mean me - because basically nothing that I get out of RPGs is part of the experience of playing a boardgame - but I'm not sure who else you mean who's been posting in this thread.