Magic Item Pricing Advice Sought...

[Seravin]

I'm dm'ing a campaign right now in which one of my players is a Wizard7/Fate Spinner3 at the moment.

Recently he approached me and asked if he could create some magic items and showed me the wishlist. I'm all for the creation of magic items created by the players. However in this I'm certain the guy is milking every last copper he can get out of the process. I don't even have a problem with that, but I'm left with the feeling that the pricing is too low on some of the items and I'm looking for a little guidance on what would be a fair cost.
The contested items are:

Armband of Healing
Command Use activated that will cast Cure Serious Wounds 1/d
Additionally if the wearer drops below 0hp the armband will auto-cast the spell as a use-activated effect (presuming it hasn't already been used). Presumably he will get the party's cleric to help.
The player's suggestion was to use Deathwatch instead of Contingency as the the trigger power for the second item. While I might agree that Deathwatch would be a fair power to make a prerequisite, I don't agree that it should be responsible for the contingent effect though I can follow his logic chain.
Pricing his way would be 7,400gp (command activated CSW at 5th level, 1/d; plus use activated Death Watch at 1st level). He did not double the first power
Pricing my way is 37,350gp (CSW the same as above, but doubled, plus Contingency at 11th level w/ 10% addition for focus).

His is too low, mine is too high. The closest related item I've found is a ring of Nine Lives(MoF). A 9 use item that casts heal under the same circumstances plus other stuff for 70kgp.
Anyone have a good feel for what's reasonable?

Vest of Flight
Command use activated to cast flight 1/d at 5th level.
His cost 5,400gp. Closest wondrous item match: Winged boots for 12,000gp
Differences: The vest only works 1/day for 50 minutes - usable all at once. The boots work for a total of 2 hours per day, broken up as the wearer sees fit. As an interesting note, the caster level of the boots is 9, which only grants 90 minutes of flight per the spell - so the boots give a free bonus of 30 extra minutes and is usable whenever.

However, while he gets slightly less than half the flight time and has to use it all at once, I do not believe that the vest is worth slightly half the cost of the boots. Generally flight gives a huge tactical advantage when it's needed. This item will be given to the monk who generally doesn't carry missile weapons.

I'm torn between either saying just shell out for the Winged Boots or charging around 9,000gp for his version.

Gloves of the Chilling Fist
Command word activated to cast Chill Touch 2/day at 9th level.
His cost 6,480gp. To be given to the monk
I've got a few issues with this as well.
*The spell has 3 distinct effects. 1d6 negative energy damage (generally not resistable), 1 pt Str drain (save to negate), and causes undead to flee (instead of damaging).
*The spell is instantaneous - which means not dispellable once started.
*While only usable 9 times for each casting - I believe only successful attacks discharge each use. So the effect would be good for at least 3 rounds of combat - but more likely a 5-6 rounds as the monk won't hit with every attack, but will almost certainly use it in conjunction with his melee attacks to maximize damage. In other words the gloves are good for about two combats on average - which in general is about all that happens in a day (thought that might change over time).

My gut reaction is to treat this as a 3 function item.
Treat the cost of the damage just like a weapon enhancement - about 2000gp. Just make it command word activated like the actual enhancement - usable at will. Undead would be immune, but otherwise non-resistable by most critters.
I'm unsure how to cost out the strength damage. Off the top of my head, make it usable up to 9 times per day (or 18 if thats what the mage wants). Cost it out as a command activated chill touch.
Then cost out the undead fear effect separately also.
Treat all three functions as similar use for purposes of costing.

So, thoughts? Comments?

Thanks
-seravin

 

[Spatzimaus]

I'll give the dcollins response:

***GENERIC RANT***

Any item not in the DMG is not allowed unless the DM says so. The item pricing guidelines in the DMG are for the DM to ballpark a new item; they are NOT for players to use.

So, first of all, you don't need to allow these items AT ALL. It's your call, no matter how much the player complains.

Second, the price is also your call. There's no "milking out the last copper", since that price table is just GUIDELINES for YOU. Not construction rules for him. Use whatever price seems appropriate. For example, an item that casts Cure Minor Wounds at will on command should cost, by the book, 900 gp. But, it's basically giving you Fast Healing 1 as long as you're not in combat AND can target other people, which makes it far better than a Ring of Regeneration.

***/GENERIC RANT***

Now, as to the items suggested:
ARMBAND OF HEALING:
Deathwatch is a detection spell. Contingency is a trigger spell. In general, that'd mean Deathwatch isn't enough, although you could be nice by saying that the item ONLY triggers if you fall unconscious. A nice compromise would be to create a Minor Contingency spell that only triggers 1st-level spells, and use that AND Deathwatch. Then, you're both happy.

Also, for pricing reasons, you should note that the item has a caster level, not the individual spells on it. Not everyone plays this way, and the rules aren't very clear, so YMMV. But even without this, you wouldn't price the spells that way. It's not actually CASTING Deathwatch/Contingency, so the Deathwatch part won't even HAVE a caster level, let alone be priced separately.

And what do you mean by "double the first power"? These aren't two separate, unrelated abilities; they're just both prerequisites for the single ability of the item. The only way you'd use those spell prices is if it said "cast CSW 1/day, cast Deathwatch 1/day"
(Well, it's not quite a single ability, but since they both count against the 1/day limit you wouldn't charge twice for the CSW)
And what's the "+10% for focus"? First, the +10% rule for additional effects in the DMG was a misprint, it's +100%. See the errata. Second, as I mentioned above, you're not actually letting the user cast Contingency (if he was, he'd get to pick which spell it triggered and what conditions), so you wouldn't even use those pricing rules.

Now, this assumes by "armband" you mean that it takes the Bracer slot. If not, you'd double for being slotless.

So anyway, here's what I'd do:
1> Remove the command-word activation part, so that it's only triggered by falling below 0. This won't always save you from being alive, since you can easily go from +0 to -10 in one shot.
2> Make it take a Bracer slot explicitly. Better yet, make it a matched pair that takes BOTH bracer slots. Really, though, this should be a Ring under the classic "Quacks Like A Duck" design philosophy.
3> Charge 10k or so for it. 6k for being a 1/day use-activated CSW effect at CL 5, plus more for the triggering.

VEST OF FLIGHT:
First, on the boot thing: "interruptible" spell items tend to cost about 50% more, so think of it more as a use-activated 2 use/day item that only gets 2/3 effectiveness to make up for the interruption thing. That makes the price 2000 * 3 * 5 * 2/5 = 12000.

Also compare to the Wings of Flying: command-activated Fly at 5th caster level, for 22,000 gp (note: the book says 5500, it was errata'd). Takes up the cloak slot, makes giant wings (big downside)

So, the price he's quoting isn't unreasonable for 1 use per day, but again, those are guidelines for you, the DM, not construction rules for him. The ability to fly is a huge benefit, especially for the sort of wingless flight the spell gives you. I simply allow an item that gives this sort of thing for less than 10k, especially if he wants it to occupy a useless slot like Vest.

GLOVES OF THE CHILLING FIST:
Just Say No. Really, that'd be my first reaction.

9 uses per activation will be enough to have the effect on pretty much every successful attack in a single fight. The only saving grace is that the item's saving throw DC (11) will suck so hard that by high levels no one will ever take the Strength damage.

But like you noted, a spell that's effectively always on should be priced by its effects, not on the spell that causes it. You can't just price it as a weapon enhancement, since as written it can stack with the effects of those Bracers of Striking or whatever you call them.

The bigger problem is that as written, Chill Touch has no maximum duration. Now, an average day will have more than 2 fights. So, you could just say:
> All "charges" must be used within a minute of activation.
> If you roll a 1 on an attack roll, you hit yourself.
That way, the Monk has no choice but to spend the first round of combat activating the gloves.

As for price, you should look in Sword and Fist at some of the other Monk-only items in there, but I wouldn't let this go for less than 10k. But like I said before, I'd be more likely to say "no, you can't do that" outright. Or maybe make it a 50-charge item...

 

[Seravin]

Thank you...

Thanks Spatzimaus, I appreciate the response. I do realize I don't have to roll over and allow these - as a dm I do have 'some' spine.

However I don't really have a problem with any one of these items as long as they're priced accordingly and my gut feel was that they were all too low. As you noted some spells are better than others when it comes to pricing out items. This is the first time I've had to deal with a character wanting to build a custom item though - so I wanted some feedback.

Though a power-gamer with munchkin like tendancies, I believe in this instance the player was trying to be helpful in the pricing. His tendancies just got in the way is all.

To answer some of your other questions since I was apparently a little too tired to be posting..

Armband of Healing.
Doubling the first power - I was treating the command-use activated power of CSW and the contingent CSW as two seperate effects - I wasn't feeling charitable enough at the time to price them as similar use abilities, but I probably should.

According to the chart I was looking at in Tome and Blood, the second additional power added to the item doubles the cost of the first power. In this case I felt the contingencied use of the CSW on top of the command use of the CSW warranted the additional cost. Though I also felt there should be some sort of discount since they draw from the same usage/day.

On the Deathwatch effect. This was the players idea. I don't agree with it from a costing viewpoint. He wants to use it because he can't cast contingency yet and almost certainly won't want to research a lower level version. I'm not going to give him a break on that though.

As for the 10% for the contingency focus - The character can't cast the spell yet - he'd have to find a mage and pay him to cast it. Which involves the casting of the spell as well paying 10% for the focus item (per PHB).

Agreed - it should take at least a bracer slot. That was my presumption in the creation of the item. I should have spelled it out.

Question: What indicates to you that this should be a ring? I tend to agree actually, but I'm curious to your reasoning as mine is a vague 'well there's a ring that does it - but with a heal spell instead'. Is there a thread you can point me to?

Vest of Flight
I appreciate your analysis of this item. I had looked at the cloak and the boots, but not quite in the light you did.


Gloves of Chilling Touch
I hadn't followed the logical conclusion of always on. Thanks. The more I think about it, he really just should make the bracers of striking with the cold enhancement (he had visions of anime in his head when he started to describe the item to me). If he wants the extra effects I'll try and figure out how to price them.

Again, thanks for the analysis. I have a difficult time balancing what's fair for this particular player. It seems my initial reaction is always just to say 'no' to him. I don't mind doing that, but I'd prefer to come to a reasonable compromise instead.

 

[der_kluge]

Seravin, might I recommend you check out Mystic Eye Games' Artificer's Handbook, which should be in stores any day now.

I'll work up the items using the formula's in that book.

For purposes of cost, I'll use a character level of 10.

Armband of Healing
1. use activated - Cure Serious Wounds 1/d
2. use-activated contingent - Cure Serios Wounds 1/d

1. use-activated, use-per item 5 slots - 1 use-per day +4 slots. Cure Serious Wounds - Spell level 3, caster level 10.
2. use-activated, use-per item 5 slots - 1 use-per day +4 slots +1 slot for second effect.
Contingency - Spell level 6, caster level 11.

Cost formula = 10gp(spell level + caster level -1) X (# of spell slots)^2
1. 10(3+10-1)X(9)^2 = 10(12)x(81)=9,720gp
2. 10(6+11-1)X(10)^2 = 10(16)X(100)=16,000gp

9,720+16,000 = 25,720gp creation cost.

(additionally, if the first effect is command-word activated, not use-activated, it's slightly cheaper (23,680gp) - I figured it that way first since I misunderstood his requirement)


Vest of Flight
Command-word activated - flight 1/d at 5th level

1. command-word, use-per item 5 slots - 1 use-per day +4 slots.
fly - spell level 3, caster level 5

10(3+5-1)X(9)^2 = 10(7)X(81) = 5,670gp


Gloves of the Chilling Fist
Command-word activated - Chill Touch 2/day at 9th level.

1. command-word use-per item 4 slots - 2 use per day +5 slots.
chill touch - spell level 1, caster level 9

10(1+9-1)X(9)^2 = 10(9)X(81) = 7,290gp

Yep, those all sound about right.

BTW, I really hate to keep plugging my book like this, but if your players are going to be making magic items such as these, you really can't live without it.
Furthermore, these were easy. The book allows you to do much, much more complex things.

edit: had to fix my bold tags.

 

[Seravin]

Thanks,
I'll be sure to look for it. I have to admit at this point I'm leaning more towards Spatzimaus' figures - but I tend to say no first and then work things out.

By taking the time to go through the work though you have sparked my interest in the book. I'll be interested in seeing how it deals with various effects.

merci,

edit: thought I'd spell Spatzimaus' name correctly

 

[der_kluge]

Seravin, the thing about the book is that it completely takes all the guesswork out of magic item creation for you. No more arguing with the player over how much an item cost - it's all spelled out with hard rules.

But, as you can see with the deathwatch, contingency thing, some items can be made in more than one way. But, there's no escaping that - magic items are complex.

But, in addition to that, it also has rules for gestalt effects (item sets), socketed items, and instability rules.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Re: Thank you...

Originally posted by Seravin

Question: What indicates to you that this should be a ring? I tend to agree actually, but I'm curious to your reasoning as mine is a vague 'well there's a ring that does it - but with a heal spell instead'. Is there a thread you can point me to?

Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, one of the designers (I think it was Monte Cook) explained that when deciding which Feat is used for a specific item, the DM should follow what he referred to as the "Quacks like a Duck" policy.
That is, if it acts like a Ring and is as powerful as a Ring, don't be letting someone make an identical item with Craft Wondrous Item. Otherwise, what's the point of having the much rarer and much higher level Forge Ring Feat in the first place?

In the specific case in question, the only similar item is a Ring. It's the kind of item you don't want low-level parties to have access to (CSW at 5th level is practically a Heal for some people, and at low level you're far more likely to see people fall into negatives without dying), so requiring a 12th-level Feat solves that. And, the slot requirement should be prohibitive, no sticking it in a vest or belt or something useless like that.

Now, the way you wrote it would probably be fine for Bracers, but I was thinking of an alternate, arguably more powerful version: if the wearer ever goes below 0 HP the Ring kicks in, with no limit to the number of uses per day. BUT, you can't activate it any other way.

 

[Seravin]

Spatzimaus, die-kluge,
Thanks again for your time, youve both been helpful.

That is, if it acts like a Ring and is as powerful as a Ring, don't be letting someone make an identical item with Craft Wondrous Item. Otherwise, what's the point of having the much rarer and much higher level Forge Ring Feat in the first place?

I think I've come across that argument myself. My only issue with it is that there's a bit of ambigiuity given the range of powers associated with rings in the DMG. I'd almost wish they had put some sort of gold piece costing for each category. ie: any item that costs more than 25,000gp must be a ring. Unfortunately that's unsatisfactory since there's the various books, robes of the arch-magi, etc.
No good answer I'm afraid except for me to make a decision. I'm guessing I'm going to allow the bracers.

But, in addition to that, it also has rules for gestalt effects (item sets), socketed items, and instability rules.

This is what I'm most interested in seeing. The item creation rules in the DMG and Tome and Blood don't really confuse me, though I obviously need some more practice implementing them.
However, the slot method strikes me as interesting and will speed up some time if I do decide to use it.

It's the tweaking of the numbers that I have too little experience in and wanted some advice on. For example, I think 5700gp is too low for an itme that gives flight; but that may be particular to the style of game I run...

Regardless, with your system or the system out of the DMG I'm going to have a debate with the player. I suspect the armband was a test to see what he could get away with - I'm guessing he'll chuck the idea until the party gets more gold. I'll get a more vigorous debate on the vest and gloves. Who knows, maybe he'll convince me that those are reasonable numbers. I don't think so, but maybe.

Thank you both for giving me some ideas to think about though.
ENWorld strikes again...

 

[der_kluge]

Well, the whole "which feat to use" debate is solved in our book as well, since we replaced the "craft magic ..." feats with 4 core feats that are based on the power level of the item, not the type. Which is apparently what has been done in 3.5 anyway. We just beat them to it.

I mean, why should it be any different to create a ring of flying as it does to create boots of flying? Doesn't make any sense to me. A rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

Seravin, if the costs are too low, replace the "10" used in the formula with a 15, or 20. You can tailor the formula to the economy in your world.