Magic item rarity revision forthcoming?

[Felon]

Wow. People are actually talking about this. Hope it continues in some fashion.

 

[Balesir]

You are correct, there is no mechanism for 4e to deprecate old content, except to errata it into such total uselessness that it becomes forgotten. That has been the case since day one. Personally I can't come up with an acceptable mechanism by which it could be done.

I think one option here would be to release every power and feat to DDI for beta testing. Let the CharOp folk and more, um, enthusiastic fans pick it apart before it gets prime time. Then publish an edited version of everything after feedback. Maybe even send some elements back for a total redesign.

Not that it's likely to happen, but it would give a sound testbed for new stuff and would justify increasing the cost for DDI membership by making it feel like being a real "insider". Split out the tools and general stuff into a separate deal (purchase of offline tools and subscription for updates, preferably) and you should have a revenue model for all content that pleases customers both casual and, er, 'keen'

 

[KarinsDad]

I think one option here would be to release every power and feat to DDI for beta testing. Let the CharOp folk and more, um, enthusiastic fans pick it apart before it gets prime time. Then publish an edited version of everything after feedback. Maybe even send some elements back for a total redesign.

And then people would say like they did for CB "Why are we paying WotC to do their beta testing for them?".

Actually, I like your idea. I like a lot of ideas that I read here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, WotC rarely implements any of them.

 

[Balesir]

And then people would say like they did for CB "Why are we paying WotC to do their beta testing for them?".

Probably true, but if it was separated from the other (tools, etc.) content at least you would have to choose to pay to do the beta testing!

And I think quite a few folk would - at least for a time.

Actually, I like your idea. I like a lot of ideas that I read here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, WotC rarely implements any of them.

Yeah, they do seem to have a bit of a blind-spot when it comes to exploiting the digital medium. Curious, given the imaginative talent they have for just about everything else (coding included, from what I have seen of the structure of the old Character Builder).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Probably true, but if it was separated from the other (tools, etc.) content at least you would have to choose to pay to do the beta testing!

And I think quite a few folk would - at least for a time.

Well, they actually sort of have done this. They've released several classes for preview before they saw print. They previewed the hybrid rules, and a few other odds and ends. Any crunch that is released in Dragon or Dungeon is inherently previewed since they incorporate errata into the article after the end of the month, which is always before it hits the Compendium.

I think in their minds though putting out nearly the whole content of books which are going to hit the shelves later on is a step too far. The question isn't so much "why are you having us do your beta testing" as it is "why should I bother to pay for this if I've already had it for months". With the current system of releases you need to go buy the book if you want new stuff RIGHT NOW, and something like 50-80% of book sales are in the couple weeks after a book hits the shelves. Anything that cuts into that 'hype period' is never going to fly because it will be costly in sales.

Yeah, they do seem to have a bit of a blind-spot when it comes to exploiting the digital medium. Curious, given the imaginative talent they have for just about everything else (coding included, from what I have seen of the structure of the old Character Builder).

I'm not so sure they really actually have all that much of a blind spot. I mean look at other industries. Music? Yeah, the RIAA is REALLY rolling with the times, they're hipsters! Well, we could go on. Purely online Internet business aside the rest are being dragged by their shirt collars into the digital age kicking and screaming. By that standard WotC is actually pretty innovative. They've obviously come to terms with the future. Like us they don't have a crystal ball to tell them what to do. There are lots of potentially good ideas but it isn't obvious which ones will work out. It isn't even obvious that a game like D&D can survive at all in the digital age.

 

[Nifft]

I think in their minds though putting out nearly the whole content of books which are going to hit the shelves later on is a step too far. The question isn't so much "why are you having us do your beta testing" as it is "why should I bother to pay for this if I've already had it for months". With the current system of releases you need to go buy the book if you want new stuff RIGHT NOW, and something like 50-80% of book sales are in the couple weeks after a book hits the shelves. Anything that cuts into that 'hype period' is never going to fly because it will be costly in sales.

I haven't bought any books since I realized everything shows up in the CB and/or Compendium, for which I do pay.

Putting stuff out for testing won't make me (or other subscribers like me) buy less than zero books.

Cheers, -- N

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I haven't bought any books since I realized everything shows up in the CB and/or Compendium, for which I do pay.

Putting stuff out for testing won't make me (or other subscribers like me) buy less than zero books.

Cheers, -- N

There is a huge amount of stuff that doesn't show up in CB. There are a lot of people that LIKE books. There are a lot of people that like to have the book before the stuff even shows up in CB and will pay to get it 2 weeks sooner. There's all sorts of people out there. Just because there is one subset of them that won't buy books NO MATTER WHAT doesn't mean they should tank their book sales. I mean if you want to have DDI cost enough to make up the difference in revenue that's one thing. OTOH even if they could charge that much for it I doubt they want to blow off the other people that maybe don't even want DDI.

I think probably the ultimate conclusion of all that is there are 2 product lines, digital and print, that need to co-exist. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm ALL FOR more better stuff on DDI sooner. I'm all for PDFs. I'm all for a lot of things. Realistically though, they're going to need to push out the products that don't cannibalize other sales too much.

 

[Balesir]

Well, they actually sort of have done this. They've released several classes for preview before they saw print. They previewed the hybrid rules, and a few other odds and ends. Any crunch that is released in Dragon or Dungeon is inherently previewed since they incorporate errata into the article after the end of the month, which is always before it hits the Compendium.

Sure, but it isn't done with any clear aim to get feedback. There is no private DDI feedback forum, for example, with points/forum xp for useful input (just something like the xp system here could be a useful guide to help the Devs). I get the feeling they view the digital aspect as a marketing tool and nothing much else; the previews are to get some hype/buzz going prior to release rather than to get system feedback.

I think in their minds though putting out nearly the whole content of books which are going to hit the shelves later on is a step too far. The question isn't so much "why are you having us do your beta testing" as it is "why should I bother to pay for this if I've already had it for months". With the current system of releases you need to go buy the book if you want new stuff RIGHT NOW, and something like 50-80% of book sales are in the couple weeks after a book hits the shelves. Anything that cuts into that 'hype period' is never going to fly because it will be costly in sales.

This is obviously a concern; I think WotC need to think really hard about what they are in business to sell. Is it books, a game system or a hobby experience? Then they can look at the avenues for making the money they need to sustain a business from that. Sticking to the old, tried and tested avenues feels 'safe', but if potential is left unfulfilled - especially when the market comprises people as imaginative and proactive as roleplayers - the customers will fill that "potential gap" with tools and facilities of their own. WotC might then label some of that gap-filling "piracy", but setting out to fight your own customers is not likely a winning formula.

I'm not so sure they really actually have all that much of a blind spot. I mean look at other industries. Music? Yeah, the RIAA is REALLY rolling with the times, they're hipsters! Well, we could go on. Purely online Internet business aside the rest are being dragged by their shirt collars into the digital age kicking and screaming.

Oh, apart from a very few beacons in the mist, there are few businesses that really do seem to have cottoned onto how to deal with the revolution that is in the middle of happening, agreed. But there are signs of progress.

By that standard WotC is actually pretty innovative. They've obviously come to terms with the future. Like us they don't have a crystal ball to tell them what to do. There are lots of potentially good ideas but it isn't obvious which ones will work out. It isn't even obvious that a game like D&D can survive at all in the digital age.

I am in no doubt at all that RPGs and much else can survive in the 'digital age' - the only question is "in what form?"

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Sure, but it isn't done with any clear aim to get feedback. There is no private DDI feedback forum, for example, with points/forum xp for useful input (just something like the xp system here could be a useful guide to help the Devs). I get the feeling they view the digital aspect as a marketing tool and nothing much else; the previews are to get some hype/buzz going prior to release rather than to get system feedback.

Well, I'm not quite so sure. They certainly did get some feedback from early reviews of a number of things like the hybrid system and some of the psionic classes. Maybe they didn't organize it in a fashion that was ideal. I'm not sure since I really don't claim to be an expert on organizing online communities. I know the things you suggest are commonly employed. I'm just not as sure most of them are proven to actually work really well. They could probably up their game in this area though. Still, I think at least the concept of getting community feedback is genuinely there.

This is obviously a concern; I think WotC need to think really hard about what they are in business to sell. Is it books, a game system or a hobby experience? Then they can look at the avenues for making the money they need to sustain a business from that. Sticking to the old, tried and tested avenues feels 'safe', but if potential is left unfulfilled - especially when the market comprises people as imaginative and proactive as roleplayers - the customers will fill that "potential gap" with tools and facilities of their own. WotC might then label some of that gap-filling "piracy", but setting out to fight your own customers is not likely a winning formula.

Oh, apart from a very few beacons in the mist, there are few businesses that really do seem to have cottoned onto how to deal with the revolution that is in the middle of happening, agreed. But there are signs of progress.

Yeah, it seems safe to say WotC is willing to try to move forward, but still mired in a lot of old school thinking. Change takes time. I think if I were them I'd be more concerned that some other company like Paizo is going to come along and figure it all out before they do. OTOH at least WotC has the resources behind it to try things. While they do make mistakes they've also managed to make some progress. I think they deserve some credit for that. I know from experience that business innovation is HARD.

I am in no doubt at all that RPGs and much else can survive in the 'digital age' - the only question is "in what form?"

Well, yes, that is the question. They may not end up being very recognizable to us here today in say 10 years. Games like D&D, rooted in PnP TT gaming may simply not really translate to the new world well enough to survive. I'd imagine that in 10 years there will still BE a D&D. I mean I know I'll keep playing as long as I can find players. The current generation of games at that point may be based on a whole new set of techniques and media though. Hard to even speculate on what that will look like. I'll guess it will involve RP with players taking the roles of fantastical characters and experiencing adventures of some sort, but beyond that who knows?

 

[Nifft]

There is a huge amount of stuff that doesn't show up in CB.

Like what?

There are a lot of people that LIKE books.

Some books are fun to read.
Those books are NOT 4e.
4e books read like a VCR manual.

Just because there is one subset of them that won't buy books NO MATTER WHAT doesn't mean they should tank their book sales.

People not buying the books == less book sales. How can you think it means anything different?

... but that's irrelevant to my point. My point is: their current set-up already means some people don't buy the books, so it's not necessarily a big loss to preview book content in the same way they preview Dragon content.

They may lose some short-term sales, but they'll end up with better content, and that's the recipe for a healthier long-term game.

Cheers, -- N