Magic Items and Dispel Magic

[IceBear]

Hehehehe - damn - I couldn't remember that saying. It's looks, walks and sounds isn't it?

I've actually never felt a duck in my life. Now chickens on the other hand.....

IceBear

 

[dcollins]

It's my opinion that they have classified all effects in the game as one of the following - natural (Ha!), Ex, Sp, or Su. There isn't some fifth classification called magic item effects.

You're facetiously skewing the conversation by even referring to "spell-like and supernatural effects". The rules do not talk about such "effects", they talk about "spell-like and supernatural abilities", that is, of creatures.

You can make up whatever extra-rule syntheses you want, but that doesn't make it so. The rules never say that magic items are categorized by one of those ability types. Dispel magic never says there's a distinction between permanent magic items which are always activated, and those which are sometimes activated.

You're making an assumption that sometimes-activated magic items "cast a spell" (et. al.) on the user, when all the item descriptions are in fact very careful to avoid saying such a thing.

 

[IceBear]

dcollins,

We tend to get along so please remain calm.

You are the one that responded to hong's comment that dispell magic effects spell-like and supernatural effects by effectively stating that magic items aren't spell-like or supernatural effects (if that's not what you were saying, then I'm sorry I misunderstood you).

My point was, since everything else in the game is catorgorized into natural (Ha!), extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural then it makes senses that the designers *intended* that the haste-like effect of Boots of Speed were to be treated like a spell-like effect and thus be subject to dispell magic like a spell-like effect. I don't see the big deal. The boots are shut off and the next round are reactivated.

Remember, no is saying the boots are supressed. I'm saying the spell-like EFFECT of the boots are supressed for that round. The boots aren't deactivated or anything.

From the SRD:

Dispel magic affects spell-like effects just as it affects spells.

So, while the Boots of Speed themselves aren't supressed, it suggests, to me, that the haste-like effect created by the boots are.

IceBear

 

[dcollins]

IceBear, I appreciate your civility. However, I think we've mapped out positions that aren't going to be swayed by the other.

I honestly don't see any justification or intent that the effects of magic items are "spell-like abilities" as you contend. Dispel magic is pretty clear that magic items are treated quite differently from spells. But now I'm basically repeating myself. (Another point is that initiating spell-like abilities provoke AOOs, while command-word or use-activated items do not).

Let me engage in hypothetical questions which I usually don't allow myself... do you also think that a ring of invisibility should be deactivated in the same way if the user is caught in an area dispel magic? What about armor of fire resistance?

 

[hong]

IceBear, I appreciate your civility. However, I think we've mapped out positions that aren't going to be swayed by the other.

I honestly don't see any justification or intent that the effects of magic items are "spell-like abilities" as you contend. Dispel magic is pretty clear that magic items are treated quite differently from spells. But now I'm basically repeating myself. (Another point is that initiating spell-like abilities provoke AOOs, while command-word or use-activated items do not).

Let me engage in hypothetical questions which I usually don't allow myself... do you also think that a ring of invisibility should be deactivated in the same way if the user is caught in an area dispel magic?

Why, yes. But the user could just reactivate the invisibility next round.

Nobody ever said that magic items are spell-like or supernatural abilities. The point is that these items create _effects_ which are magical, and so can be dispelled. The items themselves remain unaffected, and could be reactivated again (if they haven't run out of uses/day).

What are the alternatives? A magic item like a ring of invisibility could create an invisibility effect that's
- spell-like;
- supernatural;
- extraordinary;
- none of the above.

Since items (and the effects they create) are suppressed in antimagic, they're patently not extraordinary.

I think it should be obvious that item effects are not "natural" (none of Sp, Su or Ex).

That leaves either Sp or Su for item effects. The effects for particular items could be spell-like (eg the invisibility from the ring) or supernatural (the flight from wings of flying). The distinction is moot, though, since in either case, dispel magic should work on them.

What about armor of fire resistance?

Since the effect of armour of fire resistance is "always on", the dispel would shut off the effect, but it would instantly be reactivated again. The net result is that the wearer of the armour doesn't notice anything.

 

[IceBear]

Again, I'm with hong.

Dispel magic details specifics on how it iteracts with magic items, yes, but we're talking about the effects of the items here - not the items themselves.

I would do exactly what hong said. The invisibility from the ring would be dispelled (next round, it's reactivated). The armor would have it's effect dispelled, but then it would automatically reactivate - so, for all intents and purposes, it had no effect.

IceBear

 

[dcollins]

What are the alternatives? A magic item like a ring of invisibility could create an invisibility effect that's
- spell-like; supernatural; extraordinary; none of the above.

I vote "none of the above" because magic item effects are not special abilities in the first place.

So apparently in your games it's a strategic option for a caster to use an area dispel magic to temporarily turn off all magic items, and give a 1-round-window to the caster's allies to hit the formerly invisible enemy, use fire against the previously armor-protected opponent, bypass DR or SR provided by an item, etc. An interesting variation (and the same effect as 25% of the time you'd use a targetted dispel in the first place).

Does it work the same for the magical enhancement from +1 armor or a +1 sword? Does it shut off a flaming sword for 1 round?

 

[gfunk]

Does it work the same for the magical enhancement from +1 armor or a +1 sword? Does it shut off a flaming sword for 1 round?

I think Hong and Ice Bear made a fairly clear distinction. For items that are spell trigger, spell completion or command word activated I believe that their effects could be brought down with a successful dispel magic.

Items that you mentioned are use-activated. These are always "on." I believe the point that they were making is that even if this item is temporarily supressed by dispel magic, it will immediately re-activate -- leading to no net loss.

 

[AuraSeer]

So apparently in your games it's a strategic option for a caster to use an area dispel magic to temporarily turn off all magic items, and give a 1-round-window to the caster's allies to hit the formerly invisible enemy, use fire against the previously armor-protected opponent, bypass DR or SR provided by an item, etc. An interesting variation (and the same effect as 25% of the time you'd use a targetted dispel in the first place).

If that invisibility effect is being granted by a ring, then it would be dispellable. If it got dispelled, the wearer would be visible for one round, and he'd probably use up an action to activate it again. So, yes, for that case an area dispel is a valid tactic.

All the other effects you list are continously active. Hong explicitly points out what I said in my first post: a continuous item would ignore a dispel not targetted on it specifically. No one is claiming that magic armor, weapon bonuses, normal protective items, a belt of spell resistance, or any other continuous item would be affected by an area dispel.

 

[dcollins]

No one is claiming that magic armor, weapon bonuses, normal protective items, a belt of spell resistance, or any other continuous item would be affected by an area dispel.

Well, I'm pretty sure I see this above by hong: "Since the effect of armour of fire resistance is 'always on', the dispel would shut off the effect, but it would instantly be reactivated again."

Even if "immediately reactivated", I think I can picture some extraordinary environmental condition where that would make a big difference, if true.