Magic Items that lost their magic

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The problem with any amount of the necessary functionality of the character being based on gear is that you have to replace the gear with better gear as you progress, or else you fall behind.

This creates problems for some folks, since it means that you have to toss less-powerful items in exchange for higher-powered items, regardless of the utility or significance of the less-powerful items, in order to keep up with the encounters you face.

The alternative, not calculating in magical items in monster/PC comparision (CR, XP budgets and so on) systems doesn't work well either. As long as you get a bonus, it's better to have if then not to have it. And having more magic items than strictly necessary still makes an encounter easier.

If magical items gain numerical bonuses, you can dance around and provide ways to account for them (expected values by level, XP modifiers), but it's almost impossible to make the bonus irrelevant and at some point force to make a choice that improves that bonus.

Well, maybe there is one thing you could do - magical items costXP when used. You fought that human guards with your +4 Longsword? Well, that reduces your XP gain from this encounter by 20 %. (assuming that due to some yet to be determined system, 20 % loss is a "fair" for this encounter and weaponry used.)
But at that point, nobody might want magical items anymore.

Of course, it might explain why some fictional characters don't use their magical items all the time - they are powergamers in hunt for XP.

 

[GnomeWorks]

The alternative, not calculating in magical items in monster/PC comparision (CR, XP budgets and so on) systems doesn't work well either. As long as you get a bonus, it's better to have if then not to have it. And having more magic items than strictly necessary still makes an encounter easier.

I'd argue that the alternative is to not use a system that uses boring +X items, with more interesting magic items.

But if we're going to stick with 4e, I'd go with the idea of just giving players a random bonus at whatever levels are appropriate and ditching +X items entirely; however it was Mearls said to do it, or whatever. Keep the properties around, because they're what make magic items nifty, but drop the bonuses.

Not sure what to do about properties that improve with level; I'd probably just say the items level with the user, to avoid getting rid of items in favor of new ones that are just mechanically better.

If magical items gain numerical bonuses, you can dance around and provide ways to account for them (expected values by level, XP modifiers), but it's almost impossible to make the bonus irrelevant and at some point force to make a choice that improves that bonus.

Right, so the best thing to do would seem to be to get rid of the numerical bonuses.

Well, maybe there is one thing you could do - magical items costXP when used. You fought that human guards with your +4 Longsword? Well, that reduces your XP gain from this encounter by 20 %. (assuming that due to some yet to be determined system, 20 % loss is a "fair" for this encounter and weaponry used.)
But at that point, nobody might want magical items anymore.

In the game system I'm working on, this is the route we're going to go if we go with +X items (which we may or may not; I keep waffling on the topic). If you use an item that provides a straight bonus to something, you can't earn XP towards whatever it is (so if you have a ring of jumping, you can't earn XP towards jumping).

It seems to be a sensible solution; the idea behind it, so far as my system is concerned, is that the item is doing most of the work for you, so you don't actually get better at what it is you're doing, because it's hard to learn from success or failure when you're not sure what's going on because the item figured it out for you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'd argue that the alternative is to not use a system that uses boring +X items, with more interesting magic items.

Yes, of course. That's what I prefer, too.

But if we're going to stick with 4e, I'd go with the idea of just giving players a random bonus at whatever levels are appropriate and ditching +X items entirely; however it was Mearls said to do it, or whatever. Keep the properties around, because they're what make magic items nifty, but drop the bonuses.

Not sure what to do about properties that improve with level; I'd probably just say the items level with the user, to avoid getting rid of items in favor of new ones that are just mechanically better.

I think Rechan example and the Artifact rules give a pretty good idea how to handle this.

 

[CubeKnight]

But it is, and has always been, a mix of the two. Gear is important, but so are the other developments in a character - fighters included. A poorly equipped character may not be able to fight at the same level as he would were he fully equipped, but there's still a big difference between a well-equipped commoner and a character several levels higher. Always has been.

I know. But, just like other posters in this thread, I'd prefer it if the items weren't a straight up +N bonus to a stat (be it an ability score, defense, attack, damage, whatever) and instead were purely properties.

So, even if I don't have a Magic Sword, I can still deal as much damage and hit as reliably as if I had one.

 

[Stoat]

I'd argue that the alternative is to not use a system that uses boring +X items, with more interesting magic items.

I'm not sure that this would solve the problem. Presumably, interesting magic weapons and armor would give a PC some advantage in combat, even if not a straight +X. That advantage, whatever it might be, would still make the encounter easier in some way or another, and would lead back to the question "do you account for magic items in monster design/CR/level, and if so, how?"

 

[C_M2008]

I'm not sure that this would solve the problem. Presumably, interesting magic weapons and armor would give a PC some advantage in combat, even if not a straight +X. That advantage, whatever it might be, would still make the encounter easier in some way or another, and would lead back to the question "do you account for magic items in monster design/CR/level, and if so, how?"

I think the easiest way is to either not make the leveling/XP chart OR the XP encounter budgets linear (depsite the "breaks" every 5 levels it's still a mostly linear progression), instead they "jump" in value as the PCs are expected to gain more gear. Toss in some advice for changes to make if DMs like to add more/less gear and done.

 

[GnomeWorks]

I think Rechan example and the Artifact rules give a pretty good idea how to handle this.

Rechan's examples were pretty spiffy, I'll concur.

Not being familiar with 4e's artifact rules, I have no comment.

Presumably, interesting magic weapons and armor would give a PC some advantage in combat, even if not a straight +X.

Eh... I don't know. Utility is not necessarily advantage, and even if it is, there is an opportunity cost.

If your sword can burst into flame, turning any damage it deals into fire damage, then it can't sheathe itself in ice, turning any damage it deals into cold damage (presumably).

So while you're more effective at killing things that fear fire, you don't have the same effect on things that fear cold. One is not strictly better than the other (all else being equal, anyway).

That advantage, whatever it might be, would still make the encounter easier in some way or another, and would lead back to the question "do you account for magic items in monster design/CR/level, and if so, how?"

I find the whole concept of designing encounters with the PCs in mind rather flawed, anyway, so I'm probably not the best person to pose this question to.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Rechan's examples were pretty spiffy, I'll concur.

Not being familiar with 4e's artifact rules, I have no comment.

Artifacts also have multiple properties and powers, simply said, and they get better the more you are "in tune" with the artifact. (But artifacts disappear once they feel their mission is finished or the guy using them just sucks for their goals. Regular items only disappear because you disenchant them or sell them. )

I find the whole concept of designing encounters with the PCs in mind rather flawed, anyway, so I'm probably not the best person to pose this question to.

In that case, I am not sure if it's even relevant to have something like level comparability between PC and monsters. (Though you might still want them for comparing PCs? But is player character balance relevant when monster/PC "balance" isn't?

 

[AllisterH]

There's another way to make magic items feel more magical...

1. Use the "+1 to character stats at 3/8/13/18/23/28"
2. Get rid of the stat bump items.
3. The treasure parcels that actually contain magical items should be randomized a.k.a, make up a random treasure table.

(4. OPTIONAL - Get rid of the magic item economy)

This would mean that the items would be at least used by the characters for a few levels and chances are they would less likely sell them off. Given that selling off a item only gives you enough money for a level-5 item, players are encouraged to hang on to what they find...

 

[Rechan]

Though here's a question: if you take out the magical item economy, what would gold be used for? That's pretty much the only thing that you can buy, outside of alchemical items.