D&D 5E Magic Missile. Better as a cantrip?

[cbwjm]

Firebolt also has the advantage on range and has a chance to crit. I think the current iteration is fine and will be testing it out next game session.

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[Horwath]

I never said it was not relevant.

I said it was not compelling. It is akin to arguing that a 1d6 is better than a 1d4+1 because it gives you the power to one-shot monsters with 6 HP, but neglecting to factor in that it also means you could roll a 1, something impossible on a 1d4+1.

(As an aside, not all goblins have 7 HP; that's simply the average.)

biggest argument point in 1d4+1 vs. 1d6 is that EVERYONE HATES the d4 dice.

Also some magic missile-ish kind of cantrip could be good for casters that arent focused primary on their casting stat and want to have some ranged options while bashing their way through melee.

 

[Immoralkickass]

Firebolt also has the advantage on range and has a chance to crit. I think the current iteration is fine and will be testing it out next game session.

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Everyone is telling you that your iteration of MM is too good. Auto hits mean ignore AC, and that is the definition of a cantrip being too good. As long as the damage is not so low to the point of being insignificant, consistent, guaranteed damage is always better than unreliable damage. Have you ever had some days, when your attack rolls feel like they are against you? None of your spells hit, enemy always pass their saves etc. Never going to happen with your MM. Too good.

Plus, the damage is not low either. 2d4+1 is also better than the standard 1d8 for cantrips.

 

[cbwjm]

Everyone is telling you that your iteration of MM is too good. Auto hits mean ignore AC, and that is the definition of a cantrip being too good. As long as the damage is not so low to the point of being insignificant, consistent, guaranteed damage is always better than unreliable damage. Have you ever had some days, when your attack rolls feel like they are against you? None of your spells hit, enemy always pass their saves etc. Never going to happen with your MM. Too good.

Plus, the damage is not low either. 2d4+1 is also better than the standard 1d8 for cantrips.

You need to reread this thread. Not everyone is saying it is too powerful. I also think that you may be reading the original version that started with 2 missiles, updated version starts with 1 and has half the range of the original.

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[cbwjm]

biggest argument point in 1d4+1 vs. 1d6 is that EVERYONE HATES the d4 dice.

Also some magic missile-ish kind of cantrip could be good for casters that arent focused primary on their casting stat and want to have some ranged options while bashing their way through melee.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of them either. I saw someone post a modified d12 that had 3x 1-4 on it. I'm thinking of looking for a couple for my dice set.

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[Horwath]

Yeah, I'm not too fond of them either. I saw someone post a modified d12 that had 3x 1-4 on it. I'm thinking of looking for a couple for my dice set.

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Personaly, I roll 1d8 instead of d4, 5-8 is second set of 1-4 numbers.

 

[cbwjm]

Personaly, I roll 1d8 instead of d4, 5-8 is second set of 1-4 numbers.

That does seem a better idea than rolling a d4. The thing I really don't like about d4s is that they don't really roll, instead just kind of plonking onto the table.

I have found some d8s online that are numbered 1 to 4 twice. I can see me accidentally rolling them when I'm meant to roll a proper d8.

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[TallIan]

But it is relevant, particularly at lower levels (which is where most cantrip use is found). Let's say my party is fighting some goblins, with 7 hp each. I have cantrip-magic missile and firebolt available. The party fighter uses a longsword + shield and has the duelist fighting style. The rogue is using a rapier.

If the fighter hits a goblin, the fighter deals 1d8+5 damage (Str 16 + duelist). The fighter kills the goblin unless he or she rolls a 1 - a 1 in 8 chance.

If the rogue hits a goblin and gets sneak attack in (and he or she should), that's 1d8+1d6+3 damage. The rogue kills the goblin unless he or she rolls 2-3 on 1d8+1d6 - a 1 in 16 chance.

If I cast cantrip-magic missile at a goblin, I will deal 1d4+1 damage to it. That won't kill it - there is no chance of that happening. The next round, that goblin will still be around to make an attack - unless one of my comrades attacks it as well, and in that case the goblin would almost certainly have died anyway. That means that my action was almost certainly wasted (unless I fire one one of the goblins in the back that my buddies aren't hitting).

But if I cast firebolt, I at least have a chance of dealing 7 points of damage and taking the goblin out.

Now, all of this is an artifact of how damage and hit points scale at lower levels. If we're fighting a 27 hp bugbear instead, none of us is going to take that thing down in a single shot, so then averages become more relevant.

You've said If they hit, but then failed to allow for that eventuality.

The fighter and rogue have a respectable chance of NOT killing a goblin each every round while the wizard's chance of killing one every two round is very high.

Overall not a huge difference in DPR but throw in a spellcaster for the goblins and that auto hit all but disables any concentration spells for the monsters.

Even if the MM did 1 damage on a hit a think it would be OP with the auto hit.

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[Lanliss]

Just my two cp, having not read the thread. Each control has its own "thing", slowing the enemy dpwn, stopping them from healing, EBs damage. Assuming Magic missiles thing is that it does not miss, it should be a flat die, like the rest are. 1d4 with two beams seems comparable, although it would be consistent decent damage. Maybe just make it a flat 1d4 that never misses? Idk, early morning here, and I am soot balling.

 

[Staffan]

You've said If they hit, but then failed to allow for that eventuality.

The fighter and rogue have a respectable chance of NOT killing a goblin each every round while the wizard's chance of killing one every two round is very high.

With a d6 auto-hit, the chance of killing a goblin in two rounds is about 60%. That's about the chance the fighter or rogue has of killing a goblin every round.

Overall not a huge difference in DPR but throw in a spellcaster for the goblins and that auto hit all but disables any concentration spells for the monsters.

Even if the MM did 1 damage on a hit a think it would be OP with the auto hit.

I think you're overvaluing the Concentration thing. Monstrous casters are fairly rare. And even if that was a bigger thing, you'll never force a DC higher than 10 with cantrip-MM, so they'll pretty much always have a better than 50% chance of succeeding.