D&D 5E Magic Missile vs. Mirror Image

[Maxperson]

I try to look at it from a player point of view - keeping in mind that players can be on either end of this particular showdown.

As a player, if I cast magic missile targeting an NPC wizard under mirror image, I'd be happy if I could blast away all of the images, but I wouldn't feel hard done by if my missiles all bypassed the illusion and went straight to the enemy (full damage but the illusions remain intact). That's still good value for my spell slot.

On the other hand, if I were under mirror image and an NPC wizard erased it with a single casting of magic missile, I'd feel a bit cheated. Not only have the images failed to save me much damage, there's no excitement in it. Half the fun of a spell like mirror image is rolling to see if you can divert the enemy. Do you get to thumb your nose at them? Or do you get pounded flat? Having the missiles bypass the illusion is more satisfying all around - the enemy wizard has put a shot through my defenses, but I'm still protected from her fighter allies, and now I know who I have to take down.

So, all in all, I think this one is more fun when played by the book.

I'm okay with it. My view, it saved me the magic missile damage, which if it bypassed my images, means that my mirror image spell was useless in that situation. It's all perspective!

 

[Maxperson]

Apparently there is a third option present which is how I have always played magic missile and mirror image.

The magic missile only targets the caster as normal and cannot directly target the images. However since mirror image allows the caster to roll a d20 to determine if one of the images takes the attack instead of him then I do that to magic missile as well and that is the only time it is allowed to hit the mirror image.

I don't think that's a third option. Those on the MM can hit images side of things are just saying to treat it like an attack, since both the attack and missiles are intending to target the creature and the Mirror Image spell is trying to thwart them. The D20 roll is to see if the weapon swinger or MM caster mistakenly target an image instead. You're third option seems to be the same as one of the two sides debating here.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't think that's a third option. Those on the MM can hit images side of things are just saying to treat it like an attack, since both the attack and missiles are intending to target the creature and the Mirror Image spell is trying to thwart them. The D20 roll is to see if the weapon swinger or MM caster mistakenly target an image instead. You're third option seems to be the same as one of the two sides debating here.

Then please explain what [MENTION=23716]Gadget[/MENTION] said above:

I've always viewed Magic Missile as an attack that auto-hits with no need for a roll. Not precisely the 5e wording, but that is my interpretation of the intent. Mirror Image is a spell that, unlike other defenses, does not increase the AC of the recipient (which would be a slam dunk for MM to bypass); but rather introduces the chance that the attack will target an image. MM still requires a target, even sans a roll. I don't have a problem with MM hitting images as a clever caster will target as many 'duplicates' as possible with MM and likely eliminate all of them with a possibility of striking to 'real' creature. The spell still proved useful, as it completely cancelled out a second level defensive spell. I don't by the 'can only target a creature' logic, as that would prevent the spell from being used against an illusory creature designed to fool the caster, thereby making it an automatic illusion detector. The duplicates are definitely illusory creatures.

I realize this goes against the Sage, but the Sage's ruling relies on a rules-lawyery definition of 'Attack' that more than likely did not take MM into account when it is written. That said, I can see the other side of the argument and I am not strongly opposed to it.

 

[Maxperson]

Then please explain what @Gadget said above:

You said:the Magic Missile targets the creature and not the images.

Gadget said:I've always viewed Magic Missile as an attack that auto-hits with no need for a roll.

Very similar statements, especially when you consider the following.

You said:However since mirror image allows the caster to roll a d20 to determine if one of the images takes the attack instead of him then I do that to magic missile as well and that is the only time it is allowed to hit the mirror image.

Gadget said:Mirror Image is a spell that, unlike other defenses, does not increase the AC of the recipient (which would be a slam dunk for MM to bypass); but rather introduces the chance that the attack will target an image.

That's the exact same idea.

Both of you are saying that the spell targets the creature, but there's a chance that it instead targets an image.

 

[FrogReaver]

You said:the Magic Missile targets the creature and not the images.

Gadget said:I've always viewed Magic Missile as an attack that auto-hits with no need for a roll.

Very similar statements, especially when you consider the following.

You said:However since mirror image allows the caster to roll a d20 to determine if one of the images takes the attack instead of him then I do that to magic missile as well and that is the only time it is allowed to hit the mirror image.

Gadget said:Mirror Image is a spell that, unlike other defenses, does not increase the AC of the recipient (which would be a slam dunk for MM to bypass); but rather introduces the chance that the attack will target an image.

That's the exact same idea.

Both of you are saying that the spell targets the creature, but there's a chance that it instead targets an image.

I think you forgot his most important line:

"I don't have a problem with MM hitting images as a clever caster will target as many 'duplicates' as possible"

How exactly is someone that is talking about targeting duplicates meaning the same thing as me when I say the duplicates can't be targeted?

 

[Maxperson]

I think you forgot his most important line:

"I don't have a problem with MM hitting images as a clever caster will target as many 'duplicates' as possible"

How exactly is someone that is talking about targeting duplicates meaning the same thing as me when I say the duplicates can't be targeted?

It's a bit confused on his part, but the bolded portion matches what you are saying. Even if there is a small deviation between what you two said, it's still basically the same idea.

 

[FrogReaver]

It's a bit confused on his part, but the bolded portion matches what you are saying. Even if there is a small deviation between what you two said, it's still basically the same idea.

"Target as many duplicates" is in no way shape or form anything remotely similar to what I am saying. I say you cannot target duplicates at all.

 

[Maxperson]

"Target as many duplicates" is in no way shape or form anything remotely similar to what I am saying. I say you cannot target duplicates at all.

Well, there are things worth arguing about, but this isn't one of them. Believe as you wish.

 

[Arial Black]

The magic missile only targets the caster as normal and cannot directly target the images. However since mirror image allows the caster to roll a d20 to determine if one of the images takes the attack instead of him then I do that to magic missile as well and that is the only time it is allowed to hit the mirror image.

If that were true then mirror image could protect you from ANY spell that targets you, like charm person, hex, slow etc.

Then it would be a 6th level spell, not 1st level.

There are spells that you need to 'aim' in a way like a sniper looking down the barrel of his rifle. If his cross-hairs are over the target when he squeezes the trigger then he hits; if the cross-hairs are not (the target moved, he moved, whatever) then he misses.

In the game spells/effects which work that way are resolved using the attack roll mechanic.

But there are many, many spells that do not require 'aiming' at all; they just require the caster to choose which creature he can see is the target of the spell. Whether or not the target is affected by the spell has nothing to do with 'aiming' or caster accuracy or such things. Instead, the target may or may not partially or fully resist the hostile magic in some fashion, such as having a strong will or being inherently tough.

In the game such spells do not use the attack roll mechanic. They may have a saving throw, they may not.

Mirror Image only works against thing that are aimed. The attacker/caster needs to have his 'cross-hairs' over the target, and he could have his cross-hairs over the wrong target; it may be one of the images instead.

It does not work against things that do not need to be aimed! Those spells just need the caster to choose a visible target (usually), and a viable target for charm person/hex/slow is 'the guy in the pointy hat with all the images'.

Magic missile does not need to be aimed. All that is required is that the caster choose 'the guy with all the images' as the target of the spell, just like he would if casting charm person/hex/slow etc.

It is also why individual images cannot be targeted by such spells, because 'one of the images' is not a valid target for MM, not being a creature.

It all makes sense.

 

[FrogReaver]

If that were true then mirror image could protect you from ANY spell that targets you, like charm person, hex, slow etc.

Then it would be a 6th level spell, not 1st level.

There are spells that you need to 'aim' in a way like a sniper looking down the barrel of his rifle. If his cross-hairs are over the target when he squeezes the trigger then he hits; if the cross-hairs are not (the target moved, he moved, whatever) then he misses.

In the game spells/effects which work that way are resolved using the attack roll mechanic.

But there are many, many spells that do not require 'aiming' at all; they just require the caster to choose which creature he can see is the target of the spell. Whether or not the target is affected by the spell has nothing to do with 'aiming' or caster accuracy or such things. Instead, the target may or may not partially or fully resist the hostile magic in some fashion, such as having a strong will or being inherently tough.

In the game such spells do not use the attack roll mechanic. They may have a saving throw, they may not.

Mirror Image only works against thing that are aimed. The attacker/caster needs to have his 'cross-hairs' over the target, and he could have his cross-hairs over the wrong target; it may be one of the images instead.

It does not work against things that do not need to be aimed! Those spells just need the caster to choose a visible target (usually), and a viable target for charm person/hex/slow is 'the guy in the pointy hat with all the images'.

Magic missile does not need to be aimed. All that is required is that the caster choose 'the guy with all the images' as the target of the spell, just like he would if casting charm person/hex/slow etc.

It is also why individual images cannot be targeted by such spells, because 'one of the images' is not a valid target for MM, not being a creature.

It all makes sense.

I agree magic middle cannot target an image

However magic missile is a hit. Being a "hit" makes it an attack. No other spells are hits and so they are not attacks. All works fine here as well and makes sense. It's not about targeting. It's about hitting