magic missle house rules?

[DrSpunj]

I swiped a House Rule from someone here for Magic Missile:

Casting Time is increased to 1 Full Action (NOT 1 Full Round).

To me, the auto-targeting nature of the spell requires a bit longer casting time. That's it. It doesn't make the spell unusable or nerf it, IMO, but in some situations may not be the straightforward choice it is with a 1 action casting time. I also like the fact that Sorcerers applying any metamagic feats push the casting time up to 1 Full Round or more.

It's worked really well for my group.

BTW, I also allow Arcane Bolt (from WotC's website) and Flame Bolt IMC.

 

[Coredump]

That number was generated by using wizard followers using the leadership feat. It was a high level game and the wizard in question had a high charisma. His leadership score for purposes of followers was 25.

yeah, I kind of assumed that part. But you (or rather the DM) is saying that of the 163 followers that decide to follow you. *EVERY SINGLE ONE* of them are arcane spell casters. It would seem *much* more likely (to me anyway) that the vast majority of them were NPC classes (warriors, craftsmen, adepts, whatever) and of the rest, a mix of PC classes. Probably weighted towards fighters, but not sure. Out of 163 followers, I would expect more like 20 arcane spellcasters being a good amount. (about 100 npc's, etc.)
Now, you may not agree, and that is cool. But my comment was that if you are playing in a world where it is acceptable that you can get 163 followers, and all mages... that confers different concerns than others may face.

My point, however, was not really the total damage. It was that a first level spell cast by low level beings can be effective against a high level opponent. The 'auto-hit' nature makes the spell too strong. If there was a saving throw or attack roll involved, the value of the spell would be far mroe appropriate for a 1st level spell.

Sure *if* you can get enough of those creatures together. *and* they can all get close enough. Remember, the range for 82+% of them is only 110 ft. You need to get them bunched pretty tight in order to be able to target the party. So yeah, if you can sneak up 150+ people within 100 feet of 4 19th level adventures, they probably deserve to die. Remember the mages fireball can hit them from 1100 feet away. (not to mention things like invisibility, flying out of range, blink, blur, etc.)

 

[Lamoni]

My point, however, was not really the total damage. It was that a first level spell cast by low level beings can be effective against a high level opponent. The 'auto-hit' nature makes the spell too strong. If there was a saving throw or attack roll involved, the value of the spell would be far mroe appropriate for a 1st level spell.

Actually it makes perfect sense to me that a large group of first level spellcasters that are prepared for combat should be able to defeat a high level character who is not prepared. If they didn't all have magic missile readied, they wouldn't have a chance. If the high level character was prepared for combat with shield, they wouldn't have a chance. Where is the problem? If you want to have a campaign world where a high level character is immune to low level threats even in high numbers, that is your option and you can change the rules.

When you have large groups of things, the challenge rating increases. Just look at the swarms in 3.5 A single bee doesn't threaten any hero, but no one I know would ever willingly walk into a swarm of them. The same applies to spellcasters with magic missile except that each spellcaster carries a 'sting' that hurts much more than any bee.

 

[jgsugden]

Actually it makes perfect sense to me that a large group of first level spellcasters that are prepared for combat should be able to defeat a high level character who is not prepared. If they didn't all have magic missile readied, they wouldn't have a chance. If the high level character was prepared for combat with shield, they wouldn't have a chance. Where is the problem? If you want to have a campaign world where a high level character is immune to low level threats even in high numbers, that is your option and you can change the rules.

I'm not trying to say anything about how effective the low level casters should be against the high level party, though their presence as a 'side effect' of the leadership feat is a bit out of whack. A feat that can generate 600+ damage 1/day is a bit much.

The problem is that MM is far different in effect than other 1st level spells. Compare MM in the described situation (100+ low level casters) to other 1st level combat damage spells. Burning hands, shocking grasp and chill touch are light years behind MM in efficiency.

This is one indication that MM is out of balance. Back when 3E came out, there were comments from designers that it was too strong of a spell for a 1st level spell, but it was held in such high regard by play testers that everyone seemed to object to any significant change to the spell.

The spell automatically hits, deals damage that is hard to resist, is relatively easy to quicken and is very efficient when used to spread damage around and finish off foes. That is just too good for a 1st level spell.

 

[Grog]

I'm not trying to say anything about how effective the low level casters should be against the high level party, though their presence as a 'side effect' of the leadership feat is a bit out of whack. A feat that can generate 600+ damage 1/day is a bit much.

The problem is that MM is far different in effect than other 1st level spells. Compare MM in the described situation (100+ low level casters) to other 1st level combat damage spells. Burning hands, shocking grasp and chill touch are light years behind MM in efficiency.

On the other hand, those 150+ 1st level wizards could all have prepared Charm Person instead. The odds of rolling 4 natural 1s on 150 saves is much greater than 50-50.

I really don't see the balance problem with MM. Fireball is a 3rd level spell that does more damage, inflicts its full damage to multiple creatures, and has a longer range. They seem roughly in balance to me.

 

[Lamoni]

The spell automatically hits, deals damage that is hard to resist, is relatively easy to quicken and is very efficient when used to spread damage around and finish off foes. That is just too good for a 1st level spell.

I disagree. I agree that it is better than other 1st level spells in combat, but it is still an appropriate 1st level spell. Other 1st level spells still serve their purpose. I would argue that the problem doesn't lie with magic missile, but with the other combat spells. However, I also dislike having 4-5 different spells that accomplish the same thing. So as soon as you change the other spells to match magic missile in combat power, you should then merge them all into the same spell and you would end up where you started. Magic missile is the standard combat spell and isn't used for anything else. Therefore it should be better at what it is designed for than anything else.

What other 1st level spells do you find poor in comparison? Burning hands is still a very useful spell because of the fire damage. Shocking grasp still compares nicely with damage, but it could possibly be eliminated because it serves the same purpose as MM. Chill touch should be eliminated because it tries to do two things, but does neither one well. Ray of enfeeblement drains more strength and MM does more damage. I just still don't see a problem with MM. Rather than comparing it to other first level spells (which shouldn't be designed as being equivalent), maybe it would be better to compare its damage to the damage of other classes. It doesn't outpace the fighter or barbarian in dealing damage at any level so therefore it is properly balanced.

 

[Azlan]

Deleted; double-post.

 

[Azlan]

But in the end, its just kinda one of the things that makes D&D D&D.

Yes, well, the same could be said about THAC0, but they got rid of that with 3E, didn't they?

What gripes me is how the other 1st level "damage" spells -- Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, etc. -- are neglected, due to the long range and "cannot miss" accuracy of Magic Missile's damage.

Magic missiles are one of the most useful -- if not the most useful -- damage spells when your allies are engaged in melee with your opponent(s).

And magic missiles are especially useful against NPCs and creatures with the Evasion ability!

True story: I once had a demi-god manifest before the PCs in my campaign. (They were 6th level at the time.) The players got cocky and bad-mouthed the demi-god. (Heh. I see this attitude often among 3.0/3.5 players.) So, I had the demi-god blast them with a Lightning Bolt. All of the PCs made their Reflex saves, so they took half damage, which was still a considerable amount and more than enough to humble them. All of them, that is, except for the rogue, who took no damage because of his Evasion. The rogue's player chuckled over this, saying, "Cool! I dodged the lightning bolt of a demi-god!" To that, the demi-god replied, "Oh, yeah? Well, I got something for you 3rd edition rogues as well... " And the demi-god fired a volley of magic missiles at the rogue.

 

[Philip]

On the other hand, those 150+ 1st level wizards could all have prepared Charm Person instead. The odds of rolling 4 natural 1s on 150 saves is much greater than 50-50.

If they don't all have Mind Blank's running, then they don't deserve to be Epic and it would serve them right.

 

[Grog]

If they don't all have Mind Blank's running, then they don't deserve to be Epic and it would serve them right.

So they can have Mind Blanks but not Shield spells?