Magically Equipped vs. Unequipped - What is the Level Difference?

[Quartz]

Are you allowing the 12th level party to buff beforehand?

And a 5 character party should really have 2 clerics over two fighters.

And I must disagree with you about the rogue. A 12th level rogue has 6d6 SA damage (average 21), plus weapon buff (+4) and Str buff (+2) for 27 damage). A 6th level rogue has 3d6 SA damage (average 11), plus +2 weapon, but without the Str buff, because the spellcaster is using that on the fighter, for a damage of 13. Hardly comparable.

 

[Endur]

Level/Effective CR
1/1
2/2
3/3
4/3
5/4
6/4
7/5
8/5
9/6
10/6
11/7
12/7
13/8
14/8
15/9
16/10
17/10
18/11
19/11
20/12

I think it is something like this, but not as extreme as +8 at level 20. Maybe more like +4 or +5.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not sure it can be expressed as simply as a level difference. But if it can be, that would be totally awesome.

Seems like most loot can be "compensated" by using more of the Cleric or Wizard's daily spells. So a party of Druids & Clerics wouldn't notice the lack as much as a party of Rogues and Fighters. (Of course, a party of Druids and Clerics is probably a few ECL above any other party...)



My PCs go through a lot of stuff -- they get a lot, and they lose a lot. Sometimes they use it, but most often they get their stuff stolen, sundered, or they drop stuff (like the wizard's favorite 4th level spell wand) when Stunned.

I previously worried about their wealth level (too much now? too little now?) but my players only seem to remember their favorite 5 items, so as long as I don't give too many things with bonuses that stack, they're always about the same.

... which reminds me. They need some new loot.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dragonblade]

I think it is something like this, but not as extreme as +8 at level 20. Maybe more like +4 or +5.

Perhaps. Think of the possible magic that level 20 characters can bring to bear against enemies with none. A fighter alone could have armor +5 and a shield +5 for an AC boost of +10, not to mention the increased mobility from Boots of Striding and Springing and so on. Give them a +5 sword or other weapon and they are already much more effective in battle. And that is only a simplistic example. Real PC are much more likely to have developed all sorts of tactics and synergies with their items that an unequipped party cannot hope to match.

Plus think about how a party with no magic would fare against incorporeal or opponents with similar supernatural advantages that can only be overcome with magical gear.

But anyway, those values are based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary of course.

 

[Aus_Snow]

What about 4/5 of the level w/gear? Just eyeballing it, that looks kind of right to me, but I'm probably off, because I don't tend to run games with the full wealth by level type thing going on. As a general rule, that is.

 

[LostSoul]

I think the CR system in Grim Tales pegged it at .2 CR per level. 80%, seems about right. (edit: whoops, 20%.)

Hmm... would that include a Wizard's spellbook? If it does, does it include all the spells that he's found and scribed in there, or just the 2 free spells/level?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Once you get past 10th level the equipment is very important.

I think that a properly equipped 9th level party is roughly as effective overall as a stripped 12th level party.

Besides the obvious advantages of potions, a handful of scrolls and a choice few wands adds tremendously to the staying power of every character with a spell list. This is potentially huge for the Paladins, Rangers, Bards, and even the Rogues, and this is the secret sauce that makes a lot of SomethingX/Spellcaster1(3) builds tick.

Think of about how much it can hurt to lose emergency scrolls like Dispel Magic, Web, See Invisibility, Glitterdust, Fly, Invisibility, Dimension Door, Teleport, Remove Paralysis, Slow/Remove Poison, etc.

In terms of a cage match, the 12th level party has a bit of an advantage, but not a big one. But the 9th level party will almost always win in a more open venue if they can successfully drag the combat out.

 

[Quartz]

The Order of The Stick seem to be high level without much in the way of magic items.

 

[MarkB]

I'm not sure it can be expressed as simply as a level difference. But if it can be, that would be totally awesome.

Seems like most loot can be "compensated" by using more of the Cleric or Wizard's daily spells. So a party of Druids & Clerics wouldn't notice the lack as much as a party of Rogues and Fighters.

However, if you're using the spellcasters' spells for this, then they have fewer left over for combat - and they already have fewer spells, because they've lost their stat buffs and wands and scrolls and Pearls of Power.

So what's really happening is that you're drastically reducing the duration for which a party can sustain its fighting capability in any given day. Not quite down to the "throw a spell or two and then I'm spent" levels of a 1st-level wizard, but within that ballpark.

 

[Cosmic.Justice]

I concur with ThirdWizards assessment of the overall power level of the varying character classes, with the Rogue being slightly higher, on par with the Fighter. Non caster classes are so reliant on gear in D&D once you get past 7th level or so it more or less defines them. As a non caster class your characters abilities pale in comparision to what your gear does for you.