Magically Equipped vs. Unequipped - What is the Level Difference?

[Seeten]

Fighters with their base will save are taken out of the fight with a single charm or hold spell, or tasha's. The 9th level group can wipe out the Rogue/Fighter/Barbarian turn 1 with Mass Hold Person.

Its really quite unbalanced.

 

[Quartz]

Once you get past a certain level, a lot of what you can potentially run into requires certain items to overcome. You might have to go through some encounter tables and strike through a number of creatures or adjust them.

Not actually true: you do less damage, but you still do damage. Just because something has e.g. DR 30/whatever doesn't mean that you can't do more than 30 HP damage. Or, if you can't, perhaps you can lead the monster to the Bottomless Pit of Doom or whatever. And, of course, forcing players to use their brains instead of their characters' brawn can be a welcome change. But it is incumbent on the GM to give the players a way out - even if it is running away.

 

[Quartz]

Fighters with their base will save are taken out of the fight with a single charm or hold spell, or tasha's.

Then they should do something about their Will saves, like - shock, horror - multiclassing. Or take feats like Iron Will, or Force of Personality (use Cha instead of Wis) rather than combat-oriented feats.

For instance, any Lawful character can multitask to Monk, not - in game terms - to become a Martial Arts whizz but to focus on internal discipline. And it helps in the bar-room brawl.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Then they should do something about their Will saves, like - shock, horror - multiclassing.

I have to wonder what exactly they will be multiclassing for that Will save bonus.

 

[Lanefan]

Then they should do something about their Will saves, like - shock, horror - multiclassing. Or take feats like Iron Will, or Force of Personality (use Cha instead of Wis) rather than combat-oriented feats.

Multiclassing, to me, should never be the answer to anything other than some odd particular character concept that can't be done within a single class. (exception: if you're a 1-character party, in which case you're somewhat forced to be a jack of all trades)

Better just to kill whatever's casting the spell before the spell resolves.

Lanefan

 

[Seeten]

Then they should do something about their Will saves, like - shock, horror - multiclassing. Or take feats like Iron Will, or Force of Personality (use Cha instead of Wis) rather than combat-oriented feats.

For instance, any Lawful character can multitask to Monk, not - in game terms - to become a Martial Arts whizz but to focus on internal discipline. And it helps in the bar-room brawl.

This, to me, sounds like the hallmark of bad DMing and a bad game, to each their own, have your fun, or whatever, but count me out of the game where I cant play a fighter, because then my will save is too low and I have to multiclass to survive the game.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Multiclassing, to me, should never be the answer to anything other than some odd particular character concept that can't be done within a single class. (exception: if you're a 1-character party, in which case you're somewhat forced to be a jack of all trades)

Better just to kill whatever's casting the spell before the spell resolves.

Lanefan

I agree completely. Except for the exception, which seems appropriate somehow. Even the solo adventurer (well, PC) needn't play the part of JoAT. Why not just have a lone Fighter righting wrongs, or wronging rights for that matter. Or Rogue. Or Wizard. . . whatever.

Multiclassing should never be for a 'build'. Yuk. But YMMV, to all and sundry. Naturally.

 

[Slife]

This, to me, sounds like the hallmark of bad DMing and a bad game, to each their own, have your fun, or whatever, but count me out of the game where I cant play a fighter, because then my will save is too low and I have to multiclass to survive the game.

It's not the fault of the DM so much as the fighter being weaker than other core classes. A lot of DMs houserule the fighter's will save to improve the balance.

 

[Mark CMG]

Once you get past a certain level, a lot of what you can potentially run into requires certain items to overcome. You might have to go through some encounter tables and strike through a number of creatures or adjust them.

Not actually true: you do less damage, but you still do damage. Just because something has e.g. DR 30/whatever doesn't mean that you can't do more than 30 HP damage. Or, if you can't, perhaps you can lead the monster to the Bottomless Pit of Doom or whatever. And, of course, forcing players to use their brains instead of their characters' brawn can be a welcome change. But it is incumbent on the GM to give the players a way out - even if it is running away.

I might be misreading things here. I stated that the encounter tables, and creatures on them, will require the group to make some adjustments. You disagree with me and then seem to go on to suggest how some things can be adjusted. Are we actually on the same page?

 

[Quartz]

Multiclassing, to me, should never be the answer to anything other than some odd particular character concept that can't be done within a single class.

I can't wrap my head around this. D&D thrives on multiclassing; it positively encourages multiclassing. In fact, I'll go as far as to say that you're supposed to multiclass.

Amongst the non-pure-spellcasting classes:

If you want skill points, take levels in Rogue, Ranger, or Bard.
If you want BAB, take levels in Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, or Barbarian.
If you want combat feats, take levels in Fighter.
If you want good Ref saves, take levels in Rogue, Ranger, or Monk.
If you want good Will saves, take levels in Knight, Paladin, or Monk
If you want good Fort saves, take levels in Fighter or Barbarian.
If you want good saves all over, take a couple of levels of Paladin to get Divine Grace, or take levels in Monk.

Spellcasters are, of course, hit hard by multiclassing, but a few levels of a non-spellcasting class can provide key benefits - Ftr 2 gives feats, Pal 2 gives Divine Grace, Rog 2 gives Evasion - and can cover entrance requirements to Prestige Classes.

When you create a character, the weaknesses are just as important as the strengths. If you create a highly focussed character - such as one with a high Fort save but weak Ref and Will - then you should not be surprised if the characters weaknesses are exposed.

Or would you rather the NPC did not cast spells whose saving throw is your weakest?