Major Image with more than the caster can perceive?

[phindar]

I think the mirror image reference is a little faulty. To continue Hyp's snipe hypothetical, if a blind caster was turned into a snipe and cast mirror image he would create duplicate snipes because that's what the spell does. (If the mage has a "Kick Me" sign on his back he doesn't know about, MI duplicates would have it. Kind of a funny way for the mage to find out about it, actually.) But you still couldn't make a Minor Image of something you'd never seen, at best it would look like whatever default mental image your mind creates. (If I were casting it, my minor image snipe would look like a opossum, perhaps with a little hat. I don't know why, that's just what I'm seeing.)

I'm not entirely sure if its possible to create an "invisible" illusion, or an illusion you'd need See Invisibility to see. If that's what you wanted, I'd think you'd need to cast Invisibility on the illusion. (I haven't put a lot of thought into this, but these are my first impressions.) But I don't think a caster has to include all the elements of an illusion, so if they wanted to cast a Major Image without a visual component (or thermal, or sound) they could. So a caster could create a sound and smell illusion of herself, and the players would likely assume she was invisible. A lower tech version would be a Scent Bane ability or spell and Ghost Sound.

 

[Nifft]

But in the silly example, will someone else see it and think it's a snipe? Or will they percieve an invisible snipe? Or werely see an image of what the caster thinks a snipe should look like?

I'm willing to go with the preconceptions of the veiwer theory - if they get a will save automaticly and not just when interacting with it.

First off: spells should not grant information unless they say they do. So I'd have no problem with the spell failing, since presumably the caster can't visualize something he's never seen. (And visualization is a necessary part of the spell, spelled out in silent image, which nukes my earlier "separate observers see separate stuff" theory.)

Secondly: Yes, everyone would just see what the caster visualizes the snipe as looking like.

Finally: I'd allow a Knowledge (whatever) to recognize a poorly visualized illusion (one created from incomplete knowledge of the subject), such as Kn(nature) to recognize the fakeness of a red fire giant with black hair, as one who had only seen them via Darkvision might visualize.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kahuna Burger]

First off: spells should not grant information unless they say they do. So I'd have no problem with the spell failing, since presumably the caster can't visualize something he's never seen. (And visualization is a necessary part of the spell, spelled out in silent image, which nukes my earlier "separate observers see separate stuff" theory.)

Secondly: Yes, everyone would just see what the caster visualizes the snipe as looking like.

Finally: I'd allow a Knowledge (whatever) to recognize a poorly visualized illusion (one created from incomplete knowledge of the subject), such as Kn(nature) to recognize the fakeness of a red fire giant with black hair, as one who had only seen them via Darkvision might visualize.

Cheers, -- N

Ok, so this seems to me to be different from your earlier comment of the veiwer's preconceptions being used and goes back to the orriginal question - Can a normal human make a Major Image with a good enough smell illusion to fool a bloodhound on his scent? Or can he only create "gross" odors he himself is capable of distinguishing and 'visualising' (smellualizing?) such as baking bread or a skunk?

 

[TheGogmagog]

The 'kick me' sign argument is what made my mind up. (wasn't sure when the question was posed). Mirror image would let the caster find out he has a kick me sign. If the caster creates a major image of himself, the sign would be missing and an observer would know the something was up. I'd allow a save right then, and probably a circumstance penalty.

Same as if the caster creates an image of something completely unbelievable.

So with the snipe, you get what the caster thinks a snipe looks like. Others might believe the illusion, but they wouldn't recognize it as a snipe. The orc would only stink as accuratly as the caster could know, a creature with scent would get a bonus check, but a failed save would mean a) the scent is filled in with magic b) it doesn't smell right because of some other 'scentbreaker'.

The question to your specific situation, 1) Did the caster ever temporarily gain scent? and 2) Would the creature with scent a. have made the save b. been able to figure out why the illusion didn't smell right c.have been able to communicate something was up?

I guess you woldn't want to take flaws that affect your senses if you plan on being a illusionist. You also might want to be able to experience some of the super-sensory methods. Possibly through transmutation or posession.

 

[Nifft]

Ok, so this seems to me to be different from your earlier comment of the veiwer's preconceptions being used

Yup. See that part about nuking my theory? That's what that was.

and goes back to the orriginal question - Can a normal human make a Major Image with a good enough smell illusion to fool a bloodhound on his scent? Or can he only create "gross" odors he himself is capable of distinguishing and 'visualising' (smellualizing?) such as baking bread or a skunk?

Visualizing is the only bit that's spelled out as necessary.

But... what are you asking here? Does the smell he's creating qualify as an "object, creature, or force" which he can visualize? He could create an image of a person, and that would have the correct smell -- but the illusion wouldn't mask any other trails, and presumably wouldn't leave a trail of its own. So the bloodhounds would eventually interact with it, and then the game would be up.

Do I understand your question right?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The question to your specific situation, 1) Did the caster ever temporarily gain scent (transmutation)? and 2) Would the creature with scent have been able to communicate something was up, even if it made it's save?

1) is a reasonable question that in this case we wouldn't have the background on her to know - it seems unlikely with the rest of her skill/spell ackage, but you never know. 2) would be yes, they were celestial dogs which have greater than animal int (and the summoner spoke celestial) and had been given the specific assignment to find the scent on some clothes of the illusionist we had, so if the scent didn't match they should have ignored that area.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

regarding visualization.. How about turning the Knowledge checks around... In casting Major Image the caster must roll the appropriate Kn check as if attempting to identify the creature. Higher checks get more things right.

Creatures viewing the Image can make a Kn check and if they have a higher result than the caster, they earn a Will save against the Image due to seeing something 'odd' about it.

For making an Image of oneself, Kn Humanoid coupled with a Disguise check should do the trick.

er...
signed, Poster C

 

[TheGogmagog]

Not to be obtuse but, it's up to the DM anyway. Sometimes you let things on the edge of the rules slide in on the spot rulings. It's better than a DM that says 'well, no one asked if the orc smelled funny'.

If I were the dm I conseed a bad on the spot ruling and says in the future I would rule diffently. (Or make the npc saves secretly and not say squat if they failed). Even then, they are npc's? I'm supposed to look for scent X, there is something moving around over there but it smells like scent x.

Or the DM might just rule the magic fills in the rest, no scent problem.

 

[TheGogmagog]

What I was trying to say is...

er...
signed, Poster C

I don't think there is an 'A' answer to this one. No rules quote and glossary term logic to prove the spell provides the scent.

 

[*mon]

If the magic can't fill in a scent or darkvision image that the caster hasn't personally experienced, then for humans and other casters without darkvision, illusion spells will nearly always fail when the dwarf or monster, fail to see a darkvision image where the illusion interacts with ambient light and shadows. To accurately duplicate darkvision the caster would have had to have observed their intended illusion subject while polymorphed into a form with darkvision, alterself would be insufficient as it doesn't grant darkvision.