Make SPELLS Balanced

[Yaarel]

Make SPELLS Balanced

This thread doublechecks the official spells in 5e. The hope is the 2024 edition will calibrate the spells, so every spell in a same slot will be about equal in value.

5e does an excellent job at nerfing the spells from earlier editions that were historically broken. This effort is part of why 5e is a remarkably robust gaming engine that can handle character optimization. At the same time, 5e made less effort to upgrade spells that were subpar from earlier editions. There are trap options that are disruptively inferior to other options in the same slot.



To avoid confusion between "class level" and "spell level", I will refer to spell levels as "slots". For example, a "5th-level spell" is the same thing as a "5th-slot spell", a "5 slot spell", and a "spell that requires 5 slots".



DAMAGE SPELLS

The classic damage spells, like Fireball, deal instantaneous save-for-half damage. A multi-target spell should deal 7 damage per slot. A single-target spell should deal 9 damage per slot.

The 2014 Dungeon Masters Guide (page 284) advises how much damage a spell should do per slot. However, similar to how the Monster Manual ignores the DMG advice for monsters, the Players Handbook ignores the DMG advice for spells. For example, the DMG says a 3rd-slot spell should deal 21 damage (6d6), but no spell like this exists in 5e. 5e spells deal amounts of damage that are wildly inconsistent. Even so, it is possible to identify certain spells as bench marks that other spells can measure against. Whence: multi-target should deal about 7 damage per slot and single-target should deal about 9 damage per slot.

The following spells deal an appropriate amount of damage for their slot.

SLOT	MULTI-TARGET	SINGLE-TARGET
1st-slot	2d6 damage (7) Arms of Hadar (7) Burning Hands (10.5)	2d8 damage (9) Ray of Sickness (9) Dissonant Whispers (10.5) Hellish Rebuke (11) Chromatic Orb (13.5) Inflict Wounds (16.5)
2nd-slot	4d6 damage (14) Shatter (13.5)	4d8 damage (18) Scorching Ray (21)
3rd-slot	6d6 damage (21) −	6d8 damage (27) −
4th-slot	8d6 damage (28) −	8d8 damage (36) Blight (36)
5th-slot	10d6 damage (35) Destructive Wave (35) Cone of Cold (36) Conjure Volley (36)	10d8 damage (45) Harm (49)
6th-slot	12d6 damage (42) Chain Lighting (45)	12d8 damage (54) −
7th-slot	14d6 damage (49) −	14d8 damage (63) Finger of Death (61.5)

Notes.

To get a sense of the 5e gaming engine, these spells should be 4th-slot spells: Fireball, Flame Strike, Lightning Bolt, and Circle of Death.

The 7th- and 8th-slot damage spells are remarkably subpar. Even 7th-slot Finger of Death is slightly subpar. Yet, the 9th-slot has extremely high damage dealing spells. Instead of the scaling multi-target 63 damage, Meteor Swarm deals 140 damage. Instead of the scaling single-target 81 damage, Power Word Kill deals 100 damage.

Several damage spells might need to relocate to a lower slot where they can become competitive with the other spells at that lower slot. Otherwise to remain in their current slot, they require a damage boost or possibly additional effects. Examples of subpar damage spells include: Melfs Acid Arrow, Conjure Barrage, Ice Storm, Flame Strike, Circle of Death, Fire Storm, and Sunburst.

 

[tetrasodium]

Make SPELLS Balanced

This thread doublechecks the official spells in 5e. The hope is the 2024 edition will calibrate the spells, so every spell in a same slot will be about equal in value.

5e does an excellent job at nerfing the spells from earlier editions that were historically broken. This effort is part of why 5e is a remarkably robust gaming engine that can handle character optimization. At the same time, 5e made less effort to upgrade spells that were subpar from earlier editions. There are trap options that are disruptively inferior to other options in the same slot.



To avoid confusion between "class level" and "spell level", I will refer to spell levels as "slots". For example, a "5th-level spell" is the same thing as a "5th-slot spell", a "5 slot spell", and a "spell that requires 5 slots".



DAMAGE SPELLS

The classic damage spells, like Fireball, deal instantaneous save-for-half damage. A multi-target spell should deal 7 damage per slot. A single-target spell should deal 9 damage per slot.

The 2014 Dungeon Masters Guide (page 284) advises how much damage a spell should do per slot. However, similar to how the Monster Manual ignores the DMG advice for monsters, the Players Handbook ignores the DMG advice for spells. For example, the DMG says a 3rd-slot spell should deal 21 damage (6d6), but no spell like this exists in 5e. 5e spells deal amounts of damage that are wildly inconsistent. Even so, it is possible to identify certain spells as bench marks that other spells can measure against. Whence: multi-target should deal about 7 damage per slot and single-target should deal about 9 damage per slot.

The following spells deal an appropriate amount of damage for their slot.

SLOT	MULTI-TARGET	SINGLE-TARGET
1st-slot	2d6 damage (7) Arms of Hadar (7) Burning Hands (10.5)	2d8 damage (9) Ray of Sickness (9) Dissonant Whispers (10.5) Hellish Rebuke (11) Chromatic Orb (13.5)
2nd-slot	4d6 damage (14) Shatter (13.5)	4d8 damage (18) Scorching Ray (21)
3rd-slot	6d6 damage (21) −	6d8 damage (27) −
4th-slot	8d6 damage (28) −	8d8 damage (36) Blight (36)
5th-slot	10d6 damage (35) Destructive Wave (35) Cone of Cold (36) Conjure Volley (36)	10d8 damage (45) Harm (49)
6th-slot	12d6 damage (42) Chain Lighting (45)	12d8 damage (54) −
7th-slot	14d6 damage (49) −	14d8 damage (63) Finger of Death (61.5)

Notes.

To get a sense of the 5e gaming engine, these spells should be 4th-slot spells: Fireball, Flame Strike, Lightning Bolt, and Circle of Death.

The 7th- and 8th-slot damage spells are remarkably subpar. Even 7th-slot Finger of Death is slightly subpar. Yet, the 9th-slot has extremely high damage dealing spells. Instead of the scaling multi-target 63 damage, Meteor Swarm deals 140 damage. Instead of the scaling single-target 81 damage, Power Word Kill deals 100 damage.

Several damage spells might need to relocate to a lower slot where they can become a more comparable to the other spells at that lower slot. Otherwise to remain in their current slot, their damage requires a boost or possibly additional effects. Examples of subpar damage spells include: Melfs Acid Arrow, Conjure Barrage, Ice Storm, Flame Strike, Circle of Death, Fire Storm, and Sunburst.

I very much agree on correcting the "intentionally overtuned"* spell problem since it really creates a mess both for casters & GMs alike. While they are at doing that 5.5 needs to correct problems caused by the overuse of concentration to hamstring

Spoiler: a Self Correcting 'Problem'

[edit: I link to this rather than a guide describing how to because it nicely explains the what & why in ways a guide would obfuscate with excess data]

buff debuff & control type spells are a thing that serve to make the rest of the party shine a bit brighter & give them wiggle room when its needed but between so much of the system being constructed with an effort to "embrace the imbalance"* there isn't much room or need for it.

*I wish those were not direct quotes

 

[Horwath]

I like 8d6 fireball.
There are more problems with casters than removing HP from targets.
Control, battlefield manipulations are far more effective than removing HPs.
Most monsters are huge bags of HPs anyway.

All spells should be around fireballs damage at 3rd spell level.

also damage spells need better scaling.

banishment goes from 1 target to 2 targets at spell levels 4 and 5.
+100% efficiency.
fireball goes from 9d6 to 10d6 from 4th to 5th level.
+11% efficiency. What a joke.

depending on side effects, damage types, AoE size, most, if not all damaging spells should be based on d6 and d8 only.

upcasting of damaging spells should be 3 dice for single target, and 2 dice for AoE.

I.E.
fireball should deal +2d6 extra per spell level. with +5ft radius increase.

Scorching ray should be 2 rays for 3d6 at 2nd level and gain one 3d6 ray per spell level.

 

[Lojaan]

Oh boy the spells... <rolls up sleeves> LET ME AT THEM!

 

[Yaarel]

I like 8d6 fireball.

I appreciate the Wizard casting a Fireball is an iconic D&D tradition. The designers want to give this icon "plot protection".

Even so, in the context of 5e, the design goal works better as a special Wizard feature to boost the Fireball spell, rather than creating an overpowered spell that disrupts the balance of other spells. Compare how the Warlock boosts the Eldritch Blast cantrip and the Detect Magic spell, and how the UA Ranger modifies Conjure Barrage.

The Fireball spell is thematically appropriate for an elemental Druid. It helps for the Druid to have it on the spell list even if without a special Wizard boost.

There are more problems with casters than removing HP from targets.
Control, battlefield manipulations are far more effective than removing HPs.
Most monsters are huge bags of HPs anyway.

This thread can discuss any kind of spell. The first post address the damage spells as a starting point. Comparing the numbers shows clearly the 5e spells need calibration generally, for the sake of balance.

also damage spells need better scaling.

Looking at what a spells damage should be for each slot, helps clarify how much damage spells should scale.

Generally, +2d6 for multi-target and +2d8 for single-target.

 

[Horwath]

The Fireball spell is thematically appropriate for an elemental Druid. It helps for the Druid to have it on its spell list even if without a special Wizard boost.

Wildfire druid should get it as a bonus spell instead of Plantgrowth or Revivify.

 

[Horwath]

I appreciate the Wizard casting a Fireball is an iconic D&D tradition. The designers want to give this icon "plot protection".

Even so, in the context of 5e, the design goal works better as a special Wizard feature to boost the Fireball spell, rather than creating an overpowered spell that disrupts the balance of other spells. Compare how the Warlock boosts the Eldritch Blast cantrip and the Detect Magic spell, and how the UA Ranger modifies Conjure Barrage.

Special wizard boost could be +1 damage per die rolled.
Fireball, 8d6+8

 

[Yaarel]

I very much agree on correcting the "intentionally overtuned"* spell problem since it really creates a mess both for casters & GMs alike.

Yeah. The imbalance of spells causes all kind of problems, including ranging from trap options, to hampering class access to thematically appropriate spells, to imbalance between casters and noncasters. And more.

While they are at doing that 5.5 needs to correct problems caused by the overuse of concentration to hamstring

I dont have as strong a feel for the Concentration mechanic. The spells that I go for tend to deserve it. But there are spells that clearly dont deserve it, and others that should probably have it.

buff debuff & control type spells are a thing that serve to make the rest of the party shine a bit brighter & give them wiggle room when its needed but between so much of the system being constructed with an effort to "embrace the imbalance"* there isn't much room or need for it.

Yeah. Yet an other problem that spell imbalance causes. Spells that are good for party participation end up not happening, because they are less good than other spells at the same slot.

 

[Yaarel]

Wildfire druid should get it as a bonus spell instead of Plantgrowth or Revivify.

The Wildfire Druid should probably have both Fireball (and Lightning Bolt since lightning normally causes natural wildfires) as well as Plantgrowth (since the forest burnings fertilize the soil).

The Wildfire Druid also needs access to Revivify if serving as the party healer.

 

[Yaarel]

Special wizard boost could be +1 damage per die rolled.
Fireball, 8d6+8

Brainstorming.

The Wizard can have a feature that can increase the die size of the Fireball spell and any other Fire spell.

For balance generally, a 3rd-slot spell deals about 6d6 damage.

But the Wizard feature would convert d6→d8 to deal 6d8 damage.

It would work for other Fire spells too, including cantrips and Burning Hands.

 

[Staffan]

The 2014 Dungeon Masters Guide (page 284) advises how much damage a spell should do per slot. However, similar to how the Monster Manual ignores the DMG advice for monsters, the Players Handbook ignores the DMG advice for spells. For example, the DMG says a 3rd-slot spell should deal 21 damage (6d6), but no spell like this exists in 5e. 5e spells deal amounts of damage that are wildly inconsistent. Even so, it is possible to identify certain spells as bench marks that other spells can measure against. Whence: multi-target should deal about 7 damage per slot and single-target should deal about 9 damage per slot.

Damage, however, is not the only concern. One thing that's clearly taken into account is AOE. You mention Circle of Death and its low damage (same damage as 3rd level fireball but using a 6th level slot) – but Circle of Death has an absolutely massive area, 9 times that of a Fireball.

Instead of the scaling single-target 81 damage, Power Word Kill deals 100 damage.

Power Word Kill deals no damage. It kills a target with 100 hp or fewer, but if the target has e.g. 101 hp it has no effect.

It is essentially the same as Sleep, only a higher-level version.

 

[Horwath]

The Wildfire Druid should probably have both Fireball (and Lightning Bolt since lightning normally causes natural wildfires) as well as Plantgrowth (since the forest burnings fertilize the soil).

The Wildfire Druid also needs access to Revivify if serving as the party healer.

as Revivify is not Druid spell, it should be 3rd level bonus with Fireball.
Druid can access Plant growth normally with preparation.

 

[Horwath]

Brainstorming.

The Wizard can have a feature that can increase the die size of the Fireball spell and any other Fire spell.

For balance generally, a 3rd-slot spell deals about 6d6 damage.

But the Wizard feature would convert d6→d8 to deal 6d8 damage.

It would work for other Fire spells too, including cantrips and Burning Hands.

d6+1 is more reliable than d8 with same average damage.

that is better for some "trained" or "specialized" bonus.

 

[aco175]

d6+1 is more reliable than d8 with same average damage.

that is better for some "trained" or "specialized" bonus.

I might like having specialized wizards re-roll 1s on the damage and then have a level ability where they re-roll 2s as well. Instead of just adding more damage that is static. Players like to roll dice and not be disappointed when the dice suck.

 

[Yaarel]

I might like having specialized wizards re-roll 1s on the damage and then have a level ability where they re-roll 2s as well. Instead of just adding more damage that is static. Players like to roll dice and not be disappointed when the dice suck.

Yeah. The reroll looks solid, and can work with other spells that use different dice.

Fireball 6d6 reroll 1s and 2s (27 damage) ≈ 8d6 (28 damage)

And the Wizard class can boost it incrementally, starting with reroll 1s and elsewhere upgrade to reroll 2s.

 

[Yaarel]

Damage, however, is not the only concern. One thing that's clearly taken into account is AOE. You mention Circle of Death and its low damage (same damage as 3rd level fireball but using a 6th level slot) – but Circle of Death has an absolutely massive area, 9 times that of a Fireball.

Unless the caster can "sculpt" the area effect to avoid hitting allies, the larger the area effect means the less useful the spell is − thus the lower the level it is.

But generally, the Players Handbook doesnt take area effect into consideration in any consistent way.

When it comes to spells that were subpar in earlier editions, 5e tends to import them as-is without too much thought. For example, in 5e, it makes less sense for Telepathy to be an 8th-slot spell (it could easily be a 3rd-slot spell), or Legend Lore to be 5th-slot spell (when the 5e History skill obsoletes it). Several spells are examples of a rough cut-and-paste from earlier editions. Only the spells that were brokenly powerful and caused huge problems in earlier edition got the proper attention of the 5e designers.

Power Word Kill deals no damage. It kills a target with 100 hp or fewer, but if the target has e.g. 101 hp it has no effect.

True. But it is normally easy to know if the hostile has less than 100 hit points.

In case of doubt, soften the hostile up first before casting Power Word Kill.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I disagree that fireball should be downgraded to 6d6.

8d6 actually does the right amount of damage at that level. Enough to actually be worth taking over a debuff.

6d6... not so much.

Probably they should update the table instead of downgrading.

I think 7d6 would also be ok.

3d6 at level 1 + 2d6 per spell level.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Several damage spells might need to relocate to a lower slot where they can become competitive with the other spells at that lower slot. Otherwise to remain in their current slot, they require a damage boost or possibly additional effects. Examples of subpar damage spells include: Melfs Acid Arrow, Conjure Barrage, Ice Storm, Flame Strike, Circle of Death, Fire Storm, and Sunburst.

Please. Update damage and effect, don't relocate. And mutlitarket should absolutely start with 3d6 (burning hands) , if there is no additional effect. Single target can be 3d10 (inflict wounds) and not be unbalanced.

 

[Horwath]

I might like having specialized wizards re-roll 1s on the damage and then have a level ability where they re-roll 2s as well. Instead of just adding more damage that is static. Players like to roll dice and not be disappointed when the dice suck.

Please no,

we have more than enough of rerolling mechanics.
i suggested simple +1 per die, as is it simple and does not slow down the game.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

all spells need to be redone, and fireball should NOT be better then other damage spells. Now the argument can be made to bring other spells up to that level, or bring it down. Same with Meteor Strike.

I also want hold and tasha laugh NERFed to heck... there is NO amount of damage is equal to "take a turn or more away from target" let alone "Take a turn away AND debuff target"

a 20th level wizard running into a non legendary 20th level threat can use a 1st level Tasha laugh spell to more effect then any damage spell. Heck since saves don't go up with level if facing a target with low save it may just knock them right out of the fight... compare that to any damage causing spell.

no 1st or 2nd level spell should be powerful enough to negate a threat like that