Make Your Case: Monk & Bard

[steeldragons]

Here we go...gonna open up that Can o' Class Worms one more time...

Here's the thing...developing my own RPG. Have 10 classes done...set in stone: 3 Warriors, 3 Wizards, 2 Rogues and 2 Priests. All nice n' symmetrical like...the major class archetypes, "the sword" and "the sorcery", for lack of a better term, are dominant...the rogues and priests take a back seat as the secondary "supporting" character types. Good round number.

But now, I figure, insteadof adding in additional classes in the "next set", I might as well just suck it up and round the classes up to the dozen...make each category equal with 3 options each. So, Rogue needs 1 more...and Priest needs 1 more.

Now, to include the pretty much all of the original [A]D&D classes...Monk and Bard need a place.

I have seen the retroclones, the arguments over the 5e implementations, I have run over things on my own a hundred thousand times (yes, I counted! )...

I have seen the Bard as Rogue (the standard, I believe) and the Bard as Priest playing off the traditional/historical/Celtic roles that I am inclined to lean toward...

I have seen the Monk presented as Priest, as Rogue, as Warrior...and, of course, as Kung Fu Psychic.

Now, taking into account the categorizing criteria I have been using...Rogues are Rogues because they are primarily dependent on their Skills...mostly, but not necessarily all, non-combat. Priests, put perhaps too simply, receive their magical power from some external sources. These sources, are Divine or Nature...so the Bard's magic could conceivably be spellcasting or Channeling of a Natural (or Divine, even, say from a minstrel or historian type god). Could be. Or the Bardic Lore and Performance, Information Gathering, not to mention traditional Rogue skills like Stealth and Sleight of Hand...and the Bard seems to be firmly entrenched in the Rogue camp.

But the same token, the Rogue as dependent on Skills, and their Dexterity, makes a comfortable fit for the Monk: Speed, Multi-attacks, Acrobatics (perhaps), Climbing and Slow Falling...before you get into/put in the back seat the wonky "spiritual powers" like Speaking to Plants, Self Healing and "Magic Hands"/Chi Punches. Or do you play up the spiritual powers and put the unarmed combat in the back seat? The priestly definition could be refined to say they receive their powers from a spiritual connection to...something...and in the Monk's case that could be defined as "themselves"...

I'd also like options for a better name as I don't [never have] loved "Monk" as the martial artist guy...Mystic is generally the forerunner and has roots in BECM...so I'll likely go with that...if Monk's are more Priest than Rogue.

So...yeah...last chance to make your case:

Is the Bard a Rogue or Priest [or something else entirely], and why?

Is the Monk a Rogue or Priest [or something else entirely], and why?

Or do I just make them both a "Other/Additional/some better term" group of classes that are all or none or don't fit the other 4, sharing elements from multiple other?...and then if I do that then does Paladin have to go there? Ranger?

K. One thing at a time...the Monk and Rogue Conundrum first.
Hit me.

 

[The Human Target]

I would ask what your other classes are in the categories.

That was an awkwardly structured sentence.

 

[steeldragons]

I would ask what your other classes are in the categories.

That was an awkwardly structured sentence.

I left those out on purpose. What baring would that/they have on where you feel the Bard and/or Monk should go?

 

[The Human Target]

Its easier to categorize something if you can see what falls into the other categories.

 

[steeldragons]

You'd think, wouldn't you? Not so much. hahaha.

Rogues: Classes that rely, primarily, on Skills. Whether these are used for trickery, thievery or combat...the class' "niche" is using [predominantly] non-magical Skills. Stealth (at least) is a skill common to all currently available Rogue classes. By default "non-caster" classes but "half-casters" like a Bard would be considered or "extra powers" like a Monk would have are completely fine [after all the Paladin is a Warrior with divine powers]. Primary Ability [for all Rogue classes] is Dexterity.

Currently, Thieves and Rangers [Dex & Str & Con] are considered "Rogues."

Priests: Classes that rely, primarily, on some "greater power" and their enlightenment/connection to it. As mentioned above that could be defined as the "human potential" [for monks], "nature" or "the divine." By default a "Caster" class, but again, "half-casters" or conversely a non-caster with some kind of enlightenment/connection that grants them powers would totally fit. Armor options vary by order/religion. Weapon options vary by order/religion. Primary ability [for all Priest classes] is Wisdom.

Currently Clerics [which may be any type/number of characters/orders/religions from the armored tank with flinging maces and buffs to an unarmored spell/prayer invoking pacifist healer] and Druids [Wis & Con] are Priests.

Warriors are classes that rely on their armor, weapons and combat expertise first and any other skills or abilities (including magic powers) may simply be icing. Strength is the Primary Ability. Fighters (obviously), Barbarians [Str & Con] and Paladins [Str. & Wis & Cha] are all considered "Warriors."

Wizards are classes that rely on their occult and unknown knowledge and powers which they learn, practice and master themselves...it is, primarily, their power, not some "greater source" like Priests...any other skills or abilities (include martial prowess) may simply be icing. Intelligence is the Primary Ability. Mages, specialist/focused mage types [illusionists, et al. ability requirements are dependent on the type of specialist. Illusionists are Int. & Dex.], and Psychics [Int. & Wis & Cha & Con] are all considered "Wizards" because of their weird powers and low combat ability.

So....there. Where d'ya think Bard and Monk belong now?

 

[Celebrim]

I'm not sure that they do belong. It doesn't strike me as good design to add classes just to round out numbers, or to shoe horn archetypes into arbitrary categories. What advantage is there to considering the Bard a cleric or rogue? What advantage is there to considering a Monk a cleric or a rogue? Why do you want them in your game in the first place? Maybe you've got it all wrong already. Maybe Paladins are priests and Monks are warriors? Or maybe it really doesn't matter. Why do you have Paladin and Barbarian and Druid classes anyway? What if I want to make a CG Paladin of Freedom and Joy? Can you handle that? What if I want to make a lawful neutral religious fanatic; do I have to or can I even utilize the Barbarian and wouldn't it make more sense for me to know more things about religion than about survival in the wilderness in that case?

I don't think there is a right answer to your question.

 

[steeldragons]

I'm not sure that they do belong.

This, of course, is the other alternative.

It doesn't strike me as good design to add classes just to round out numbers, or to shoe horn archetypes into arbitrary categories.

Ok, well that is kinda tongue in cheek. Their inclusion would be purely because some people like to play those classes...others might say "But where are these traditional D&D style classes?" and even if they don't play them, the option of them being there "feels" more D&D.

What advantage is there to considering the Bard a cleric or rogue? What advantage is there to considering a Monk a cleric or a rogue? Why do you want them in your game in the first place?

See above. Purely to have the option for those that like them...or might like my implementation of them.

Maybe you've got it all wrong already.

That would not be possible as there is no "right/wrong" in fantasy rpgs.

Maybe Paladins are priests and Monks are warriors?

Also a possibility. But I've decided otherwise for my game.

Or maybe it really doesn't matter. Why do you have Paladin and Barbarian and Druid classes anyway?

Because they are major archetypes of a D&D-style fantasy rpg.

What if I want to make a CG Paladin of Freedom and Joy?

I am certain there are other frpg's that will accommodate you. Have fun playing them.

Can you handle that?

Can I handle tou playing that cuz you want to in my rpg system/game world? I don't have to as you won't be playing it with me. That does not mean my system/game world needs be written to accommodate that.

What if I want to make a lawful neutral religious fanatic; do I have to or can I even utilize the Barbarian and wouldn't it make more sense for me to know more things about religion than about survival in the wilderness in that case?

Again, at your table, you could do whatever you want. In the system/game world as written, I suppose so. You could make a Barbarian LN religious fanatic...you're not going to have any divine spell use or divine channeling powers...cuz you've said you want to be a Barbarian. So that means you are a human warrior from a particular cultural background...but no reason you couldn't be that who is a LN religious fanatic.

I don't think there is a right answer to your question.

Well, no...I'm not expecting a "right" answer. I want to see what people think...what their preference would be...and why they think what they do. Obviously, I am ultimately going to make the decision I think best fits the feel and world and system as I see it. But I want to know/get some outside opinions/feedback. So, whether it's ultimately "right" or "wrong", what do you actually think?

 

[DEFCON 1]

I personally would always put Monk in the Divine category. Just based upon the essence and story of the class itself. Monks study and learn in monasteries. Monasteries are religious buildings. Thus, Monks to me should be divine classes. They most certainly aren't "rogues", because the word rogue denotes a rakishness and scoundrel-like quality that is the antithesis to what a Monk is.

The Bard, however, is a storyteller. A charismatic chap or gal that tries to influence people with their artistic ability-- sometimes even using charms, illusions and the like. That puckish quality to me has Rogue written all over it.

So that's my vote-- Bard is a Rogue, Monk is a Priest.

 

[steeldragons]

Have to spread some around before XP is possible.

But a public thank you @DEFCON 1 is also deserved.

 

[steeldragons]

double post [again?!] Anyone else getting a buncha doubles today?