Making 2 weapon fighting not suck-o-rama

[Aristotle]

That's it. It's really pretty basic. The sword-n-board guy gets better AC for less damage. The 2-handed weapon guy does big damage for less AC. The 2 weapon user... well, as it stands currently, he gets to have a lower AC and do less damage than either the first two fighting styles. It's like, huh? Just seems silly to me.

The two weapon fighter in my campaign (on course to be FTR16/ROG4) admittedly had all of his feats based around two weapon fighting, but I have to say that his damage output was absolutely equal to that of the high damage dealers (at least at 10th level it was, we ended there). And he had a higher AC than anyone else in the group. The only time he ran into any trouble was against enemies with high DR.

The only house rule I put into place to get him there was to allow Two Weapon Defense (and upgraded versions) to work with Combat Expertise (when 2 or more points are spent) just as if the character were fighting defensively.

 

[Goolpsy]

In our campaign, we have a two weapon fighter, and a 2handed weapon fighter..
I must say i believe TWF to be msot powerful...

Someones mentioned the downside of paying for 2 weapons... well jsut look at the list here:
+2 = 8000 gp
+3 = 18000 gp
+4 = 32000 gp
+5 = 50000 gp...

soo..
have a +3 Flaming Keen Greatsword... or
a
+4 longsword (vs high dr monsters) and a + 1 Holy shortsword (vs Evil creatures)
so 2 weapons, does have a godo advantage

another thing is...
with the right feats.. you will be insane...
Monkey grib, (and a 'feather ability to a sword *think balance could work too*)

TWF, monkey grib, ETW (bastard sword) (3 feats) -6/-6 to hit but
2x Huge Bastard Sword each dealing 4d6 (if im correct)..

so basicly double as many attacks, double the damage per hit, for -6...
well we could make another variant...

TWF, monkey grib, ETW (bastard sword) (3 feats) -4/-4 to hit but
1 Huge Bastard Sword each dealing 4d6, and a Large Bastard sword 2d8 (stil lnot sure)

All this does, require that you have used a 'weapon slot' of +1, on each of the weapons... using either 'Feathered' or 'balanced'

Ownage?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The only house rule I put into place to get him there was to allow Two Weapon Defense (and upgraded versions) to work with Combat Expertise (when 2 or more points are spent) just as if the character were fighting defensively.

Um...you mean jacking up the Shield bonus from TWD when he uses Combat Expertise for two or more?

Okay, I can see that.

I used to have a TWF rogue/fighter, and I eventually stopped using TWF unless I was bored, as I could do a lot more damage with my bastard sword in two hands. I just started a game with a potentially cheesed-out dwarf TWF build, and we'll see how that works.

Brad

 

[Storyteller01]

I always wondered why this is the case.

Many different martial arts have moves of attacking with both arms simultaneously. I was waiting for a very well trained martial artist to take over the boxing world.

But, maybe these moves do not work as well against similarly trained opponents or maybe boxing gloves minimize their impact, and hence they cannot be used in boxing.

Martial arts that use a two handed blow (at least as far as I've seen) generally use it to as a push. There is damage, but the opponent gets pushed away as well. Where can he go in a boxing ring?

I've seen well trained martial artists against boxers. It's pretty evil. Boxers, even with the rules restricttions, tend to be REALLY fast. Styles tat rely on timing (Aikido, for an exaple) have a harrd time dealing with boxing strategy.


Hiighjack over...

 

[Zadam]

Martial arts that use a two handed blow (at least as far as I've seen) generally use it to as a push. There is damage, but the opponent gets pushed away as well. Where can he go in a boxing ring?

I've seen well trained martial artists against boxers. It's pretty evil. Boxers, even with the rules restricttions, tend to be REALLY fast. Styles tat rely on timing (Aikido, for an exaple) have a harrd time dealing with boxing strategy.


Hiighjack over...

The reason why two handed punches are very rarely used is that most of your strength in an unarmed attack comes not from the arm but the rotation of hips, shoulder etc. By attacking with both arms at the same time you cant move your body in such a way as to get any decent damage from your blow, so you end up with 2 weak strikes instead of one strong one. Does have its uses I guess but moreso to stun an attacker rather than doing any significant damage.

 

[Timeron Malachi]

Fighter with 18 STR and a Greatsword: +4 to attack and 2d6+6 to damage.
Fighter with 18 STR and two shortswords: +2/+2 to attacks, and d6+4/d6+2 damage.

Two Weapon fighting vs. twohanded fighting tends to even out, I've noticed. I just usually prefer the slightly higher attack bonus to the higher attack rate. Also, using feats like power attack and leap attack are much more beneficial for a two-handed fighter than a TWF.

But, if a fighter with two weapons puts an enchantment like Wounding on his swords, they can dish out a lot of painful hits in a round.

 

[Klaus]

Here's the symmetry:

1-Handed Weapon + Shield -> Lower Attack Opportunities, Better AC, Lower Damage

2-Handed Weapon -> Lower Attack Opportunities, Lower AC, High Damage

Two Weapons -> Higher Attack Opportunities, Lower AC, Lower Damage

So each style is better at one thing (Defense, Damage Output, Number of Attacks). Choose you flavah.

 

[TheEvil]

Frankly, I consider the sword & board style to be the weakest of the styles, esp. at higher levels. The defensive boost of the shield just doesn't keep up with attack bonuses, making the style far weaker then it is in 'reality'.

 

[sfedi]

Yep. Shield usefulness doesn't scale.

A +2 to AC at low levels is nice.

But at higher levels is negligible.

And you shouldn't have to spend more than one feat to be competitive with a shield at higher levels (in order to keep it on par with the one feat expenditure of the damage dealers (i.e. Power Attack))

A maneuver I always thought of as nice would be to allow take standard action to gain a +4 cover bonus from your large shield.
Thus, you could move without provoking AoOs.

But I disgress (and that;s something not well thought, just from the top of my head)

 

[Goolpsy]

just use a 2-handed Greatsword... and a Dancing shield... its a free action to let the shield lose, and you'll have both hands to do whatever you like to...