Making a Houserule, and I Need Your Guy's Help.

[timASW]

Sadly, there is no changing my opinion on Action Points, but as for your statement on changing "Save or Suck" spells, I think I can give some more background on this.

My first course of action before coming up with the Defense System I am proposing here was to go through the spell-list of "Save or Suck" spells, and its many relatives and friends, and what I'm proposing here was an off-shoot of my thinking about those spells to see if I can simplify them some more (Cue the worms squirming out of their 500 pound cans).

In the end, my intention for the above proposed homebrew was to make the spellcasters have to contend with a "Hitpoint System" without them being hitpoints no matter the spell they cast, which I felt was one of the ways in which spellcasters gained their rather... "Overpowered" reputation from. So, I intended the above homebrew to be a form of hitpoints for Casters to have to break through to get their spells to affect their targets at full power.

Now, I still intend to tweak a lot more spells, but I want to see if I can save some of the labor.

A better idea would be an objective look at the rules, the realization that the overpowered label is 90% crap and stop trying to make rules based on it.

However if you insist on using action points to let people literally steal someone else's real life food and drink rather then serve an in game purpose (i would absolutely not play along with this nor would anyone else I know) and dont think saving more often would fix it you could institute spell casting times ala earlier editions.

Make the wizard declare his action at the start of the round and penalize his init based on the speed of the spell. Anytime he gets belted during the round make him make a concentration or lose the spell, and his round.

That also goes a huge way to limiting the power of wizards.

 

[Oversquid]

A better idea would be an objective look at the rules, the realization that the overpowered label is 90% crap and stop trying to make rules based on it.

However if you insist on using action points to let people literally steal someone else's real life food and drink rather then serve an in game purpose (i would absolutely not play along with this nor would anyone else I know) and dont think saving more often would fix it you could institute spell casting times ala earlier editions.

Make the wizard declare his action at the start of the round and penalize his init based on the speed of the spell. Anytime he gets belted during the round make him make a concentration or lose the spell, and his round.

That also goes a huge way to limiting the power of wizards.

Maybe I didn't word it right, but what I meant to type was that you can spend a crapload of experience to be able to eat a share of the group's food without contributing any. Of course, it'll take a lot of game sessions to earn back enough experience to pull it off again, and so far no complaints.

I realize the "Overpowered" label is mostly crap, which is why I put in quotes. I'd rather not endorse the word, but it was the only word I can think of that gets anywhere close to describing it.

And I don't think any one thing can "fix it", but we gotta start somewhere. Think you can go into more detail about the init penalty thing? I'm curious about what you have in mind there.

 

[timASW]

And I don't think any one thing can "fix it", but we gotta start somewhere. Think you can go into more detail about the init penalty thing? I'm curious about what you have in mind there.

Not sure how familiar you are with editions before 3e but in some of them of weapons had a "weapons speed" that was basically a penalty on your initiative each round because some weapons are slower then others.

Spells had the same thing. So if you rolled say a total initiative of 10 and then cast a speed 8 spell you would actually go on initiative count 18. And at the top of each round each player had to declare their action, including the wizard. So if say your casting a fire ball you have to announce it and everyone (including enemies/DM) knows that your casting, basically because your wizard is sitting there chanting. So naturally everyone targets him and wizards wind up having to be much, much more careful of location and tactics before starting to cast and becoming vulnerable.

In earlier editions sometimes getting hit flat out broke your spell no matter how much damage you took. But thats really a harsh to casters so i would personally just force a concentration check (maybe make it harder) for each hit and you'll find wizards who run around casting willy nilly each round actually wind up wasting round after round most of the time due to casting failure until their dead.

 

[Herzog]

Regardless of the mechanic you are going for, I suggest you pay some attention to the other side of the coin as well. Save or suck spells, especially with the improved st yoi are suggesting, are no fun for the caster. If you increase the chance of targets making their saves, you should add something that happens to the target if they make the save. Or if they would have failed the save without the added bonus.

 

[Oversquid]

Not sure how familiar you are with editions before 3e but in some of them of weapons had a "weapons speed" that was basically a penalty on your initiative each round because some weapons are slower then others.

Spells had the same thing. So if you rolled say a total initiative of 10 and then cast a speed 8 spell you would actually go on initiative count 18. And at the top of each round each player had to declare their action, including the wizard. So if say your casting a fire ball you have to announce it and everyone (including enemies/DM) knows that your casting, basically because your wizard is sitting there chanting. So naturally everyone targets him and wizards wind up having to be much, much more careful of location and tactics before starting to cast and becoming vulnerable.

In earlier editions sometimes getting hit flat out broke your spell no matter how much damage you took. But thats really a harsh to casters so i would personally just force a concentration check (maybe make it harder) for each hit and you'll find wizards who run around casting willy nilly each round actually wind up wasting round after round most of the time due to casting failure until their dead.

Ok, that makes sense, though if I do that, I should also put a speed factor on weapons too, just so that it won't be obvious that I'm making the change specifically to cut the caster's power. Thanks for the suggestion!

 

[Oversquid]

Regardless of the mechanic you are going for, I suggest you pay some attention to the other side of the coin as well. Save or suck spells, especially with the improved st yoi are suggesting, are no fun for the caster. If you increase the chance of targets making their saves, you should add something that happens to the target if they make the save. Or if they would have failed the save without the added bonus.

I think I see what you're saying. I'll put what you're saying in my own words, but if I misinterpreted you, you may correct me.

If I implement my suggested above mechanic, I might end up making it so that spells that have no additional effect if the target succeeds their saving throw will just flat out be not used anymore, in favor of spells that always do something even if the target succeeds their saving throw.

I'm not fixing a problem, as much as I am encouraging players to "get creative"?

 

[Nellisir]

It looks to me like your basic concern is making sure players get to play, and possibly that boss monsters don't get nerfed.

My initial response would be that sometimes things happen, but that's not very helpful.

For save or die, you might institute some kind of "secondary save", that postpones the spell effect for a round. Hold-type spells might, with a successful secondary save, be allowed a partial action. A character might forestall death for a round or two. The effects kick in eventually, but the character can, possibly, delay the inevitable.

 

[timASW]

Ok, that makes sense, though if I do that, I should also put a speed factor on weapons too, just so that it won't be obvious that I'm making the change specifically to cut the caster's power. Thanks for the suggestion!

No problem. Out of all the editions the speed factors were some of my favorite optional rules for weapons and spells.

 

[Oversquid]

It looks to me like your basic concern is making sure players get to play, and possibly that boss monsters don't get nerfed.

My initial response would be that sometimes things happen, but that's not very helpful.

For save or die, you might institute some kind of "secondary save", that postpones the spell effect for a round. Hold-type spells might, with a successful secondary save, be allowed a partial action. A character might forestall death for a round or two. The effects kick in eventually, but the character can, possibly, delay the inevitable.

One of my old ideas with "Save or Die" effects were to make it depend on hitpoint totals, as Save or Die effects bypass hitpoints altogether and skip to the end. If a subject has 100% of their hitpoints, they get a large bonus to their Fortitude Saving Throw or something. If the subject is at only 50% or so, they still get a bonus, not not as high as before. Then at 25% or so, they are completely vulnerable to the death effect (That is, gain no bonus to saves against it). Some percentages need reworking I am sure, because those are just what came out of brainstorming.

All I know is that yes, sometimes stuff happens, but I want to make it so that when stuff happens, it would have definitely been deserved.

 

[sheadunne]

"Conviction, Mass" (cleric 3) was pretty much a go to spell for clerics in most 3.5 campaigns I played in. That plus "Alter Fortune" pretty much made the party auto-suceed most saving throws, especially at the high half of the game.

My only hesitation with your house rule is that it becomes just another thing to keep track of. But that's just my preference. My own preference would be, as an immediate action, you can choose to take the "staggered condition" for 1 round and add 1/2 level (min 1, max 5) to the saving throw. But again, that's just my own way of doing things.