Making adventurers poorer without affecting overall power

[Asmor]

One of the things I really liked about Keith Baker's City of Towers (the novel, not the D&D source book) was the fact that the main characters were, frankly, poor. They had to tell white lies just to secure a room and were forced to eat the artificer's tasteless gruel because it's all they could afford... Getting a job that paid a couple hundred GP was big for them, and frequently the offer of a good, free meal made an otherwise undesired social encounter palatable (pun intended).

I really like the idea of the PCs being poor and really having to scrounge for niceties. I'm not, however, quite so interested in a low-magic game, so just giving them 1/10th the money or whatever isn't going to cut it.

One idea I had was changing the ratio of coinage... Instead of denominations differing in value by a factor of 10, make them differ in value by 100. So...

1 silver = 100 copper
1 gold = 100 silver = 10,000 copper
1 platinum = 100 gold = 10,000 silver = 1,000,000 copper

Copper stays the same value, and adventuring items are all based on the "copper" standard... An item currently worth 2,000 gp is converted to copper (200,000 copper) and then translated back to the new system (200,000 copper = 2,000 silver = 20 gold).

Commoners still earn coppers for their piddly craft checks, and the gulf between the rich and poor increases dramatically.

Niceties like noble clothing, fine elven wine, lodging at a luxury hotel, etc, keep their prices. So if tickets to a show at a nice opera house cost 50 silver previously, they still do cost 50 silver, but that's now the equivalent of 500 coppers. A bottle of aged elven wine that previously cost 1 gold (100 copper) now costs 1 gold (10,000 copper), etc.

 

[3catcircus]

One of the things I really liked about Keith Baker's City of Towers (the novel, not the D&D source book) was the fact that the main characters were, frankly, poor. They had to tell white lies just to secure a room and were forced to eat the artificer's tasteless gruel because it's all they could afford... Getting a job that paid a couple hundred GP was big for them, and frequently the offer of a good, free meal made an otherwise undesired social encounter palatable (pun intended).

I really like the idea of the PCs being poor and really having to scrounge for niceties. I'm not, however, quite so interested in a low-magic game, so just giving them 1/10th the money or whatever isn't going to cut it.

One idea I had was changing the ratio of coinage... Instead of denominations differing in value by a factor of 10, make them differ in value by 100. So...

1 silver = 100 copper
1 gold = 100 silver = 10,000 copper
1 platinum = 100 gold = 10,000 silver = 1,000,000 copper

Copper stays the same value, and adventuring items are all based on the "copper" standard... An item currently worth 2,000 gp is converted to copper (200,000 copper) and then translated back to the new system (200,000 copper = 2,000 silver = 20 gold).

Commoners still earn coppers for their piddly craft checks, and the gulf between the rich and poor increases dramatically.

Niceties like noble clothing, fine elven wine, lodging at a luxury hotel, etc, keep their prices. So if tickets to a show at a nice opera house cost 50 silver previously, they still do cost 50 silver, but that's now the equivalent of 500 coppers. A bottle of aged elven wine that previously cost 1 gold (100 copper) now costs 1 gold (10,000 copper), etc.

A really really easy way to fix the money problem is to actually apply the rules as written. What I mean is - the PHB describes the fact that the economy (and a laborer's wages) are based on the silver standard vice the gold standard. Change starting money from gold to silver (i.e. 5d4 gp is normally 5 - 20 gp. Now it becomes 50 - 200 sp).

Sure - that masterwork longsword still cost 308 gp like it did before, but the PCs have a harder time buying things than before. Previously they had to lug around 6 pounds worth of coins when they were gold. Now, they gotta lug around 60 pounds of coins.

Another option? Go with the pre-decimal, silver standard British coinage denominations.

1 silver penny is the standard coin. 12 pence worth of silver equals 1 shilling and 20 shillings equal one pound, where one pound sterline actually weighed one tower (or troy) pound (12 US ounces vice 16 in a pound avoirdupois). Of course, no one actually carried around shilling and pound coins, since they were generally reserved as units of accounting (i.e. on paper).

In this case - directly convert gp to shillings - so that MW longsword costs 308 shillings (which is 3696 pence, which is well outside the means of low-level PCs)

Another solution? Go with a more realistic treasure distribution.

What types of treasure are intelligent monsters generally gonna have? Captured livestock and grain, hostages, unworked ore or billets, etc. They will not have much in the way of coins and gems.

What about the rival lord? His greatest treasures may be a half-dozen actual-printed-on-paper-and-bound-with-a-leather-cover books and the silver tea service inherited from his great-aunt.

Take some hints from Harn. A free adventure (A Shower of Silver) which is an introductory (free) adventure has the PCs at one point searching a dead body. Treasure? 2 pence. The richest pre-gen PC? 12 pence.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

Or you could just cut out the middleman and have them find whatever magic items they want that equal the GP amount you want them to have, plus a bit of coinage and such. Ask them what they want, and give them the price range they have to work with. This also lets you vet the items beforehand.

 

[Asmor]

Eek, in regards to the pence/shilling pound thing! I've a hard enough time adjusting to thinking about the differences between powers of 10, never mind trying to get all kinds of different multipliers memorized... Sad part is, I'm a math major! >_>

I considered just giving them magic items (and don't have a problem with it), but the issue with that is how do I prevent them from selling them? That +1 dagger sure is swell at level 4, but when they find the +2 short sword, it's a no brainer to sell it...

I could say that there's no market for magic items... But that's hardly realistic.

Hmm... I could institute "binding" a la World of Warcraft... As soon as someone bonds with an item, no one else can get the magical effect of it.

 

[Eolin]

I could say that there's no market for magic items... But that's hardly realistic.

There are two types of markets.

The first one is the standard merchants, who see that shiny +1 dagger as little more than a dagger, because do not have the resources nor the concern to pay 2000 gp for a dagger.

Second is the upper-crust, who also happen to be involved in government. That +1 dagger makes for some good taxation... or, failing that, the upper crust might just not deal with the adventurers, who tend to be low-end shabby types.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

IME, PCs will not spend money unless they have to.

They have to spend money on magic items. They don't have to spend money on anything else (unless required by plot). So they're basically treated as poor all the time. No one wants to spend money on good-looking clothes unless it's vital to their character concept, because they too easily remember that all those clothes could have bought them a Wand of Cure Light Wounds (1st level). Unless magic item value is separated from wealth, this will also be faced in-game.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello Asmor,

Funnily enough, this is something I was thinking of the other night. I think the answer I came up with at the time may be of interest to you.

Basic Premises:

- Have the Silver Piece as the primary unit of currency.
- Have the Copper Piece as the basic unit of currency and make sure that the majority of the population can actually purchase useable things with a couple of "pennies".
- The gold piece (at least in large quantities 20gp+) is rarely used; the platinum piece is archaic and almost never used.
- For large transactions, registered promissory notes are used (backed by large merchant houses or perhaps even the crown).
- Bartering should still be the primary method of exchange of goods
- People don't have that much coinage (you don't have half the population walking around with a large fluid supply of coinage).
- As such, if you want to sell an expensive/magical item, it will normally be traded for an item or items of equal worth. People simply don't have the physical funds to produce thousands of gold pieces at one time.
- Jewels are an arbitrary currency, inconsistent in their appraised worth. Jewels are more commonly traded amongst a cities underbelly who prefer not to use the official (merchant house) channels.
- Some races (Dwarves for instance) are more likely to have physical sums of coinage than others.

The aim with the above is to restrict large physical amounts of coinage. You simply just don't get large sums of coinage in the one place at the one time unless something really strange is going on.

However, all of this presumes the following:
- The land is a rare magic land (as against low or high magic)
- The campaign style will most likely be fairly grim/gritty
- The average person (or if you like the "Real" people) has/have little wealth to their names
- Most people don't wear armor, and those that do, generally can't afford the more expensive types.

In addition, the scope of an items worth varies in regards to it's quality:
- Poor Quality (half or even a quarter or lower than standard value); the majority of items in a population are of poor quality; *poor quality sword might have -1 to hit, less hit points and a reduced hardness
- Standard Quality (a good serviceable standard a la regular book prices); *standard quality sword is as per book
- Superior Quality (double, triple or even higher book prices; swords may have improved hardness, armor may have a slightly improved "max dex" etc.); *superior quality sword might have +1 to hit, +1 to damage, or alteratively other minor enhancements such as increased hardness
- Masterwork Quality (A work of art, at least ten times the regular price; items have significant benefits); *masterwork quality sword might have a +2 to hit, +2 to damage, increased damage dice (d8 to d10) as well as other possible enhancements
- Legendary Quality (Considered priceless for a variety of reasons: exquisite crafting, history, benefits etc.); *legendary quality sword is pretty much +3 and possibly even above with a raft of enhancements.

The aim here is to reduce the scope and reliance upon magic in the setting. Quality of production is the prime factor in an item's worth. Magical items are thus considered above and beyond and priceless in their own right.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Kyrail]

Nothing besides monster CR levels really stops you from adjusting down the PCs treasure signifigantly. It would be slightly harder to plan encounters because the PCs ECL is basicly lowered with few magic items.

The only problem is all non caster classes will get bored quickly since magic items are the rewards. Fighters get some pretty boring feats, and everyone gets some really standard progression and passive abilities. Getting loot is what makes the game fun.

If you still give them magic items but no coin... well they'll sell the items and get coin, PCs don't need all the stuff the find in any situation, and one +1 sword is enough for PCs to live off of for a 6 months in rations and inn lodgings. So they can't really be poor unless you don't let them sell magic items... and then they'll have a bunch of backed up magic gear since you'll be giving them newer and cooler stuff.

Hopefully 4E will change all this and people will advance in fun ways and you won't need so much treasure. Actually I think that is the aim for them right now.

Magic shops and everyone having +x gear is boring. I want my magic items to be made by powerful arch-mages and ancient wizards, not lying around all over the place.

 

[Maldor]

well as you know money is power but power draws money to it people with power and PC's are or will become fairly powerful. Lets say you go with your poor are very poor and rich are very rich well there will be a good chance of one of the fallowing happening they mug or rob the rich man, or hire them selfs to the rich man at a high price (if he won't pay the price then he will have low level bodyguards so we go back to mugging) as bodyguards, or just start taking what they want. yeah you might have LG character when you start but you will see the greed and evil rear its head if loot is rare i have seen it happen many times

So in short weak poeple are poor and powerful poeple make money fast.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I favor the electrum standard.

Treasure, advancement rates, and challenges go hand-in-hand -- you'll have to dial back the others unless you come up with other balancing mechanics.