Making Combat More Deadly

[MarauderX]

I don't necessarily see a problem since you don't really *need* to roll an extra die for location. You d20 roll can also act as the d10 for location. As to multiple limbs - if it has 6 arms, you roll a d6 at the same time as the d20.

The main point is that you need to roll ANOTHER die. To-hit roll. Damage roll. Location roll.
If you've played old school Battletech you know about the 2d6 damage location table. Not a big problem once you get used to it... but it still needs done with each and every hit. Battletech was easier, as you only had so many attacks and so much armor. With D&D and multiple attacks, you have a problem.

Realism is one use for hit locations, but it also allows for called shots to add some cinematics to combat, regardless of other house rules.

I'm all for realism too, but turn-based combat is not the place for it. My concern is that you'll spend more time resolving combat than actually progressing in the adventure. I like to keep things moving, and if an encounter with a swarm of guys takes whole sessions of time, generally something is starting to bog down the game time... and mostly what I've seen as a DM & player, it's usually the rules.

There is currently no mechanic to allow the heroes to shoot an arrow at the bad guy and knock his hand away from the button for the doomsday device/lever for the trapdoor to drop the princess into the pit of lava/memory crystal to start the interplanar armageddon/etc.

Try using a called shot, with negatives applied depending on the target. Consider testing it on the PCs, especially going for the eyes.

 

[3catcircus]

The main point is that you need to roll ANOTHER die. To-hit roll. Damage roll. Location roll.
If you've played old school Battletech you know about the 2d6 damage location table. Not a big problem once you get used to it... but it still needs done with each and every hit. Battletech was easier, as you only had so many attacks and so much armor. With D&D and multiple attacks, you have a problem.

I guess I just don't see the problem - the hit location table I provided is a d10 table. The d20 roll to-hit and the d10 location roll are *the same single roll*. I just don't see very many instances where there are multiples of a given appendage - very few monsters have more than 2 arms.

I'm all for realism too, but turn-based combat is not the place for it. My concern is that you'll spend more time resolving combat than actually progressing in the adventure. I like to keep things moving, and if an encounter with a swarm of guys takes whole sessions of time, generally something is starting to bog down the game time... and mostly what I've seen as a DM & player, it's usually the rules.

It depends upon the flavor of the game, regardless of whether or not combat is turn-based. High magic, superheroes? Probably not necessary. Running a Midnight campaign or a campaign where the PCs are the medieval equivalent of commandos? More "realism" adds to suspension of disbelief. Most importantly, your average "mooks" will go out with one or two shots anyway. Sure, at 1st level, 6 orcs are a challenge - they are meant to be. At 5th level, they are window dressing. One really cool optional rule is to use the Spycraft mooks rule - all PC damage goes right to WP vice VP.

I'm also a really strong proponent of the "roll all of your dice in one handful" rule to speed up play.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm also a really strong proponent of the "roll all of your dice in one handful" rule to speed up play.

It's not the rolling of dice that takes time, it's reading the dice and understanding what they mean. The more dice you have to roll, the longer that process takes.

 

[The Levitator]

ValhallaGH, I just had to mention this to you. I LOVE the IH explanation in your sig! That's exactly the kind of world I am trying to create. Unfortunately for me, I use DM Genie and I haven't figured out how to incorporate all of the special things like stunts and token pools and the magic system into it. From what I've read so far, IH seems to emulate a gritty, deadly setting.

If our group were playing with paper and pencil, we would be giving IH a shot right now!

 

[3catcircus]

It's not the rolling of dice that takes time, it's reading the dice and understanding what they mean. The more dice you have to roll, the longer that process takes.

Since I'm kind of a control freak as a DM, I don't see the issue with this. I also use DMGenie, so it is simply a matter of the players doing exactly the same thing as they did before, I just have to do a little more work:

Me: "Roll to hit
Player: "I rolled a 17 and 8 on the damage"
Me: plugs in the 17, sees the final result to hit is a 22, total damage is 14

With the hit locations and other potential changes in my original post, I'd simply look at the 1's portion of his d20 (the 7 he rolled), see that it is the right leg, and announce "You dip in under his shield, and slice open his right leg, doing a total of 10 points of damage. His armor is a bit tougher than it looks (Armor as DR). That's the fourth hit to the same spot and you've managed to do some serious damage (out of character, he is out of VP and this hit goes directly to WP.) He staggers backwards. You've probably severed his acl (WP < 1/2, lose 50% movement) and definitely hit the femoral, as the gout of arterial blood showering you attests to (WP < 1/2, Arterial Strike effects add a additional damage as he bleeds out)."

 

[Aus_Snow]

From what I've read so far, IH seems to emulate a gritty, deadly setting.

Then you might want to keep looking. It's actually 'heroic', high power type stuff. It's meant to match D&D level for level, power-wise (and PC-survivability-wise). More or less.


But anyway, regarding hit locations, this option doesn't need to take a lot of extra time out of sessions. I use hit locations in d20, based on the rules from Torn Asunder (Bastion Press). Combat isn't particularly slow, generally.

Several of the other rules mentioned in this thread, I also use. Again, more or less. The only way to see if your group really likes a rule is to try it out for a bit. Go for it!

 

[3catcircus]

Hmm..

I'm thinking of simply using the following rules, pared down a bit, from my initial post:

1. Opposed attack/defense rolls.
2. Armor as DR.
3. VP/WP.
4. The hit location and critical rules from SSS's Advanced Player's Guide.

 

[Gort]

Heh, if you want to make combat deadly, just play at high levels. That 10 hitpoint buffer between "dead" and "down" is really small when everyone's got roughly 200 hp.

 

[kraven3d]

I picked up a book from Sword & Sorcery press called Advanced Player's Guide. It is meant to be a supplement to 3.5. In it, there are charts for this; reminds me of the old d30 charts, as well as "Character Options" (fatal flaws) for extra skill points like the Skills & Powers from 2nd AD&D.

All in all not a bad book, but there are a lot of options in it that could take up a lot of time in combat.

 

[3catcircus]

I picked up a book from Sword & Sorcery press called Advanced Player's Guide. It is meant to be a supplement to 3.5. In it, there are charts for this; reminds me of the old d30 charts, as well as "Character Options" (fatal flaws) for extra skill points like the Skills & Powers from 2nd AD&D.

All in all not a bad book, but there are a lot of options in it that could take up a lot of time in combat.

Yup - I've got that book. Really great ideas, not just combat. Spellcasting critical success/failure, spellcasting is physically demanding, epic level rules to seamlessly go from 20th to 21st level, some really interesting PrCs and advanced classes.

Some of the combat rules seem a little too unwieldy for me, but are still very interesting - phased combat and weapon speed factors, for example.

One area I'd really like to see some rules on would be to revamp the Armor rules to allow piecemeal armor - I'm surprised that this book didn't have that, especially considering they include hit locations.