Making Goblins a threat for a 3rd level party.

[mattcolville]

I'm interested in presenting a real challenge to a large group of 3rd & 4th level party members, using Goblins. Here are the restraints I'm placing on myself;

1) I can use anything published in a vanilla WotC book. No FR stuff, no Eberron stuff. Must be 3.5 unless it's the Book of Vile Darkness or Savage Species or something special for 3.0 that hasn't been updated yet.

2) I cannot add class levels to the gobs. So it's feats, skills, tactics, very low-level magic. I can make a couple of exceptions for sergeants and leaders, but that's it. I want the PCs to be challenged by 1HD Gobs, not their 5HD masters.

Any ideas? I want the players to think that normal Gobs can be a significant threat. Not that I've beefed up gobs and made SuperGobs.

 

[Caliban]

I'm interested in presenting a real challenge to a large group of 3rd & 4th level party members, using Goblins. Here are the restraints I'm placing on myself;

1) I can use anything published in a vanilla WotC book. No FR stuff, no Eberron stuff. Must be 3.5 unless it's the Book of Vile Darkness or Savage Species or something special for 3.0 that hasn't been updated yet.

2) I cannot add class levels to the gobs. So it's feats, skills, tactics, very low-level magic. I can make a couple of exceptions for sergeants and leaders, but that's it. I want the PCs to be challenged by 1HD Gobs, not their 5HD masters.

Any ideas? I want the players to think that normal Gobs can be a significant threat. Not that I've beefed up gobs and made SuperGobs.

Swarmfighting from the Complete Warrior, and a decent Dex score. Even Warrior Goblins can be a bit daunting when 16 of them surround you and get flanking + swarmfighting bonuses. If you want it to be really scary, make them 1st level rogues (instead of 1st level warriors) with a 16 or 18 Dex.

Make a leader Goblin who is a Fighter 2, mount him on a Worg, and give him Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, and Spirited Charge.

 

[mattcolville]

Wow, that IS pretty nasty. Is there no limit to the number of gobs who can swarmfight around someone, or is it two per square?

Imagining every adjacent square filled with two gobs with 16 Dex means A: they'd all be flanking, B: there'd be 16 of them, C: they'd all be getting +5 to hit.

Where is a normal Gob getting his +2 to hit from? +1 from a level of Warrior, +1 from...what? Not STR.

What about making effective ranged Gobs? That seems like it will be important.

 

[Jack Simth]

At 3rd, you only have to worry about the party having 2nd level spells readily available - and there aren't too terribly many mass-target spells (as opposed to 5th, where you get such nifties as Fireball) so gobs of goblins will help.

To make the standard 1 HD goblins a challenge at all (they have a natural CR of 1/3rd) you need at least 8 of them to make an Encounter Level of 3, just by numbers. If you play them intelligently, and read their combat description, they use ambushes, they have ranks in both Move Silently (+4) and Hide (+5), so if the take 10 outside of combat, the party needs to make a DC 14 Listen check to hear them when they move, and a DC 15 Spot check to see them. If they prepare the trap carefully ahead of time, and don't move from their positions until they spring the trap, then they reasonably have lots of time to get the hide roll right, and can take 20 (although that would just be cruel) or at least get a decent sized circumstance bonus. So goblins jump out of the shrubbery along a narrow pathway (surprise round, if they didn't pass your Spot/Listen DC's), and two each start attacking each character (I'm assuming the Iconic Four here) from opposite sides. This gives the goblins a surprise round, the party a -2 flanking penalty to AC, puts every character on the front line (poor wizard - how many 1d6 hits can he take? At this point all his spells are going to provoke....). You can probably knock one or two of the party members down this way rather quickly.

You could also have them throwing javalins from a higher cliff (did anyone bring a bow?) where maybe half the party can fight back.

You could also have them tumbling rocks at the party down a hillside.

You could also have them pour some Grease (not necessarily the spell) onto the hillside to make it harder to climb.

 

[Jack Simth]

Where is a normal Gob getting his +2 to hit from? +1 from a level of Warrior, +1 from...what? Not STR.

Size. Small creatures get a +1 to attack rolls.

 

[mattcolville]

I'm wondering if it would be better to use a Rogue level instead of a Warrior level. Based on their tactics and Favored Class, it seems like they should all be Rogues. That would give them sneak attack when flanking. Lots of skill points.

 

[mattcolville]

Size. Small creatures get a +1 to attack rolls.

Ah, I'd considered that but rejected it. I thought they gained only AC, not ATK as well.

 

[Jack Simth]

Ah, I'd considered that but rejected it. I thought they gained only AC, not ATK as well.

Check the SRD:

SMALL CHARACTERS

A Small character gets a +1 size bonus to Armor Class, a +1 size bonus on attack rolls, and a +4 size bonus on Hide checks. A Small character’s carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character.

 

[Jack Simth]

I'm wondering if it would be better to use a Rogue level instead of a Warrior level. Based on their tactics and Favored Class, it seems like they should all be Rogues. That would give them sneak attack when flanking. Lots of skill points.

1 HD monsters are pretty much always presented as warriors. And while yes, Rogue levels would give them extra damage (1d6 sneak attack) it would also drop their BAB to 0 (net roll +1 for "standard" goblins using melee weapons)

 

[interwyrm]

8 war1 goblins. Each has a longbow. They start firing from maximum range (10 increments) which I think is 1000 feet. They will likely need a 20 to hit but that's not a problem because they won't be getting hit back and they will get about 10 shots off before the party is within melee range. Alternatively, give the goblins crossbows so that they can fire prone. This gives attackers a -4 penalty to hit them with ranged weapons. If you want to be really nasty, make one a druid, and have it cast entangle when the party is within range. Otherwise, give them all a tanglefoot bag. When the party gets too close, the goblins tanglefoot each party member. They then move to 100 feet and start firing again. When the party gives chase, they tanglefoot them again, and then run away. If you're lucky you will have 0 goblin casualties, a badly wounded and severely irritated party. Increase the challenge further by having them keep up with the party, and when the party rests, they ambush. Remember that goblins have a move speed of 30 which will likely be faster than at least one party member.

Also useful for the goblins would be for them each to carry some alchemist's fire.