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Making the Ice Storm spell suck less

Here's something that occured to me, the spell Ice Storm has sucked through out every edition. I don't see much reasons to use it or why it's even 4th level (and above).

The only solution I ever saw to that spell was in Baldur's Gate (and a CRPG at that) where it had an duration. But I'm wondering what would be a good way to scale the duration to level.
 

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Kodam

First Post
You think it sucks?

Now look at this:

First: There's no save against this spell. If someone saves against your 8d6 Fireball you do more damage with Ice Storm.

Second: You have got two different kinds of damage with "impact" being the stronger one. So you can't protect yourself with protection from elements and since it is an area spell even spell turning won't help.

Third: You have more than twice the area covered with your ice storm cylinder than with a fireball. Granted, most of the time you don't get anything of the upper half but still its there.
 

der_kluge

Adventurer
Whoa, Kodam. The spell just sucks.

From the 3.0 SRD:
SRD 3.0
Ice Storm
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 4, Water 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Cylinder (20-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Great hailstones pound down, dealing 5d6 points of damage to creatures in their path; the damage is 3d6 impact plus 2d6 cold.



SRD 3.5
Ice Storm
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Water 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Cylinder (20-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
Duration: 1 full round
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
Great magical hailstones pound down for 1 full round, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area. A –4 penalty applies to each Listen check made within the ice storm’s effect, and all land movement within its area is at half speed. At the end of the duration, the hail disappears, leaving no aftereffects (other than the damage dealt).
Arcane Material Component: A pinch of dust and a few drops of water.

Differences: lowered the Druid caster level by 1; clarified the non-cold damage as "bludgeoning". In addition, the spell incurs a -4 penalty to listen checks, and all movement is cut by 1/2.

The last little bit is a throwback to the 2nd edition version, which had ended up getting split into two spells - sleet storm, and ice storm, but they kept sleet storm in 3.5, but just added the effect back into ice storm. That still doesn't make it a very good spell for 4th level.

Now, let's compare Ice Storm to Fireball, as cast by a 7th level caster. Fireball will do 7d6 points of damage, and will ignite combustibles in the area. Both spells grant a spell resistance check, but ice storm has no save. Now, let's compare damage: 5d6 cold/bludgeoning versus 7d6. Fair? Perhaps, if you're attacking a group of rogues who are going to evade the fireball. Otherwise, no. Everyone is quick to point out that rogues will evade fireball damage, but when was the last time you fought more than 1 rogue at a time? Alternatively, when was the last time you fought a pile of skeletons, or a pile or orcs? Probably more likely. Skeletons, as undead, are going to completely ignore the cold damage of ice storm, anyway.

As for the height of ice storm, fireball has height too, if you play in 3-dimensions. It's a 20-ft radius sphere, not a circle. So, that's a 40-ft. diameter sphere. That's as high as ice storm is.

Now, it seems to me that I'm confused - in my house rules, I have listed the following:
"Ice storm – this spell effect has changed. In addition, druids now get this spell.
Hail falls for one full round, dealing 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 4d6 points of cold damage to creatures in their path. Listen checks made within the ice storm’s effect take a –4 penalty, and all ground movement within its area is at half speed. At the end of the duration, the hail disappears, leaving no after effects (other than the damage inflicted)."

Now, it seems to me that there must be some reason why I included the comment about it being a Druid spell, and as you can see, I added the "sleet storm" effect to my House rule, but this is for 3.0, and I can remove that now, since WoTC was thinking like me, and added it into 3.5. I also seem to recall that it had a smaller radius, but the 3.0 SRD seems to have been updated to have the same radius as fireball. That didn't use to be the case, I'm sure of it, but I don't have my book with me so I can't verify that.

My suggestion would be to increase the damage as I have done (4d6/4d6) or to increase the duration, and leave the damage as is. Something like 1 round every 4 levels or something like that, might be a little better. So, at 20th level it's actually a semi-decent spell.

As it is, though, it's quite worthless, and will quickly become abandoned once higher level spells are gained. In my opinion, spells should continue to be useful even at 20th level. This one is not. Sleep has the same problem, but I haven't fixed that one yet. :)
 

Centaur

First Post
I'm not so sure that the spell is totaly useless. The simple fact that there is no save is quite nice. However, I'm not sure why there is no save.

Fireball fills a 20' Radius Spread with flame that ignites everything combustible and bolis the flesh off of your enemies.

Ice Storm causes a buch of hail stones to fall in a 20' radius Cylinder doing blugeoning and Cold Damage.

Seems to me that the Ice Storm should be easier to avoid. If I was going to make either spell have no save, it would be fireball.

That said, I would change the damage done by Ice Storm to be all blugeoning and forget the cold damage part. Next I would up the area of effect to a 30' or 40' radius cylinder. With such a large area covered, it more realistic for it to have no saving throw. You catch more targets too.

Alternatively, you could leave the damage and the area of effect the same and give the spell a duration and make it moveable, like flamming sphere. Give it a duration of 1/rnd for every 4 levels of the caster or some such and allow it to move 30' per round as the wizards move equ action. Makes it great for a large battlefield.
 

Kodam

First Post
I see the mixed damage as one of the main advantages of this spell. Its so difficult to protect yourself against it! So you're undead an cold does no harm to you? Bad luck you still got to take the blugeoning damage. Oh, you're stoneskinned? You still get frozen. Compare this to fireball: I'm protected from fire so keep 'em coming!
In 3.5 the duration is one full round during which movement is halved.
The area is larger even in 3D; just put a tomato in a glass and you see what spaces I'm talking about. Granted its not a big thing but still.

That said I DO agree, that its not a GREAT spell. But its not useless. I also agree that a little more power wouldn't hurt this spell. How about simply increase the damage to 6d6 all in all? Rememer that there's no save...

About the question Save/no save I can only say: Its MAGIC so please no physical laws and/or logic. :rolleyes:
 
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msisden

First Post
Another advantage, from my perspective, is that since it lasts a full round, any enemy spellcaster in the area of effect would have to roll a concentration check against the damage done if he tried to cast a spell.
 

Technik4

First Post
My .02 Comparison

Fireball - avg damage at 7th level (24.5) with a save for half
Ice Storm- avg damage at 7th level (18.5) without a save

Both have a chance for spell resistance. At this level, Ice Storm is superior damage wise, since there is some chance of it doing less damage (if everyone in the fireball saves) and it does magical physical damage (very rare). A saved fireball will only do 12.25 and while there are characters who have poor saves there are also characters who will save for 0 damage (with evasion). So basically, imo, Ice Storm is better for damage since it is guaranteed to always do 75% of fireball, and sometimes it does 125% or even damage where none would be inflicted.

Keep in mind that the elemental resistances balance out, more or less. Cold and Fire are just about equally prevalant in the MM, though there are less Cold spells in the PHB.

Ice Storm also lasts a full round, so it creates an area you don't want to pass through (good for creating choke points) and even if they do want to pass through, movement is halved.

The comparison for damage worsens as Fireball and Ice Storm level, as seen below:

Fireball - avg damage at 10th level (35) with save for half
Ice Storm - avg damage at 10th level (18.5) without a save

The comparison is now Ice Storm always doing 50% of fireball, or doing the same damage. Ice Storm still has slight tactical advantage, but at this point the spell level discussion comes into play. At 7th level Ice Storm was a superior choice because Ice Storm was also a level higher than fireball, hence it SHOULD have better (or more consistent) damage. At 10th level fireball seems to outstrip it doing the same (or better, considering enemies' reflex saves) damage for part of a round (vice full round).

This discussion becomes even more interesting when you bring up metamagic.

For a 6th level spell I present the following:

Empowered Fireball - avg damage at 10th level (52.5) Reflex half
Extended Ice Storm - avg damage at 10th level (18.5) for 2 rounds

While it may appear tilted towards the fireball at first, we must account for the halves like we did earlier. Remember, assuming we can keep someone in the Ice Storm for 2 rounds, we are doing double damage, at the cost of 1 spell level. So the Ice Storm does about 30% more damage if it hits for both rounds and the fireball is saved against or 40% less damage if the fireball is not saved against and the Ice Storm hits for both rounds. If the fireball is not saved against and the Ice Storm only hits for 1 round the fireball is roughly doing 200% more damage, at the same level.

This is where we examine the spells again. Fireball is a straight-up damage spell, it can also catch things on fire, but other than that all its good for is hurting. Ice Storm can possibly prevent a retreat or cause excellent damage against rogues (of course rogues are also the most likely to get out of the way). Ice Storm is also very good against wizards (esp rog/wiz) because of the lack of save. While its true that the fireball is seeming to dominate, remember that when characters can cast 6th level spells they can also pick up rings of evasion (and those low level characters with evasion are sporting Imp Evasion, half damage all the time for fireball).

Ice Storm is also accessible to druids (although druids get Flame Strike at 4th, which presents itself as nearly well against Ice Storm as fireball does, with some differences (smaller radius, half divine damage)).

Overall I think Ice Storm is just a touch too weak. I would improve the cold damage to 3d6, making it a full 6d6. This strengthens it at all comparison levels, making it a better buy early on (for a higher spell level) and making it slightly more competitive at higher levels. I should note that while Extended Ice Storms are excellent against Wizards, Sorcerors, Bards, and even Rangers (if their hp is low) it sucks against Monks, whose high movement ensure that you will only nail him for 2 rounds in an enclosed area.

For some situations, the lack of evidence (besides damage done) is another thing in favor of Ice Storm. Cast fireball in a bookstore and you have a new enemy (the store istelf), cast Ice Storm and you merely have some broken merchandise (still a problem, but not nearly as bad).

Widened Ice Storms are quite good also, the larger area makes it more unlikely for a character to get out. An 8th level Widened Extended Ice Storm does (under my revision to 6d6) 21 damage for 2 rounds with no save in an 80ft radius (meaning a medium-size creature at its epicenter with 30 ft movement (moving at half-speed) could not escape with a double move. As it lasts 2 full rounds, wailing on them with more area spells is easy, it keeps your tight bunch (which usually spreads out after 1 successful area spell), so you can follow up with your Maximized Empowered Fireball (which avgs 77.5 damage) and they still get pelted with the Ice that round! :)

Technik
 
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I like the idea of 1 round/ 4 caster levels, most are only going to be affected for 1 round anyways unless they want to stay there for some reason or happen to be paralyzed. It actually serves as an obstacle if it lasts more than a round.
 

Technik4

First Post
The only problem with 1 round every 4 levels (if it even is a "problem") is that it allows a high level mage to have an Ice Storm going all of combat (assuming a 5-8 round combat) for a 6th level spell, an extended ice storm.

Technik
 

Zack2216

First Post
What if we lower the damage (2d6 blud, 2d6 cold) and increase the duration to 1 round/3 levels. Ya, it goes on all combat, but it doesn't do too much damage unless a lot of metamagic is put into it.

Or, we could put duration -concentration- on it, and give it an extra 1d6 cold (or bludg, I don't see any difference) every 3rd levels after 5, so at level 20, you are doing 10d6 a round. We should max it's possible duration at 1 +1 round/5 levels.

Well, this stuff here might even make it a 5th level druid spell again. Oi, bad Zack. Maybe some of this will help. :D
 

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